Is this on?

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DarthDud
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Is this on?

Post by DarthDud » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:05 pm

So, like, I don't suppose people actually discuss gameplay in here anymore? I guess all the softcorers in AFH are just too seekritive. :P

Too bad, we should hold a mini-contest. Or discuss the implications of the change. Or something. I dunno. But harassing poor KKK all the time in PM must make him hate me. :)

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Re: Is this on?

Post by KujjieKujjieKoo » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:08 pm

DarthDud wrote:So, like, I don't suppose people actually discuss gameplay in here anymore? I guess all the softcorers in AFH are just too seekritive. :P

Too bad, we should hold a mini-contest. Or discuss the implications of the change. Or something. I dunno. But harassing poor KKK all the time in PM must make him hate me. :)

Only <3 for you Darth!

But sure, gameplay is good. Whatcha wanna talk about? Yay ML! Rations are good! spooky putty is a must have!
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Post by DarthDud » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:22 pm

The potential superiority of myst classes, of course! And how to make them tick. ;)

I'm thinking KGE is obsolete here, as is oxy-drop.

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Post by KujjieKujjieKoo » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:41 pm

semi'd KGE is certainly harder to justify, although I could entertain the idea of pulling a piece or two if the guards at the harem went halfsies.

dropping the drop could be possible, depending on how you want the semi's to line up. having the option is quite nice! Also have to take into account possibly not getting a third semi in either scenario with how turncounts are dropping!

RnR legend useful now?

pilgrim shield even better than before!

beret still useful for running bonus buffs? 4th song slot is nothing to sneeze at!
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Post by lordhades15 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:52 pm

The gallery is un-nerfed!

ML and non-combat rejoice!

Now only if the antique gear produced 3 twinklies again :wink:
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Post by lostcalpolydude » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:11 pm

Why is cheaper MP from KGE no longer needed? I've had a total of two times to use that, I don't get how it isn't just as useful now (or even more so, with more combat buffs running).
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Post by MonsterERB » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:20 pm

lordhades15 wrote:Now only if the antique gear produced 3 twinklies again :wink:

Screw that. I want the antique helmet to give 50% hot/stench wads like it used to. The gallery was just so INSANELY good for muscle classes back in NS11...
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Post by DarthDud » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:43 pm

lostcalpolydude wrote:Why is cheaper MP from KGE no longer needed? I've had a total of two times to use that, I don't get how it isn't just as useful now (or even more so, with more combat buffs running).

I meant, as myst class in particular. MMJ > seltzer.

I think with MMJ, and needing probably ~2 pulls to get KGE that way, it's just not worth it. Stats are less of an issue now, so the loss of learning pills and buffing spray just doesn't hurt so much. Losing buffing spray and eyedrops hurts for item drops (~24%), but myst having such insane jeks makes up for that a lot, especially as a direct comparison to other classes. And, 24% is hardly make or break, what with how much other item+ is available nowadays (sticker sword, etc.).

So skipping the KGE, and no oxy-drop, means you can hit the ascii art as semi-rare #1, right as you're just hitting L9. This gets you the clovers when you need them for leveling... so you don't need to go to powerleveling zones at all; also factor in that the earlier equiping of ML+ compared to other classes helps in amassing stats in the crucial early game. If between all that ML+, and some free puttied clovers, you can eschew powerleveling completely in that L9-10 period, I think you're at an advantage over even moxie classes.

You'd hit semi #2 as inhaler, and obviously you just couldn't get a #3, turncounts are too low without oxydropping.

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Post by NotJim » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:00 am

DarthDud wrote:So skipping the KGE, and no oxy-drop, means you can hit the ascii art as semi-rare #1, right as you're just hitting L9. This gets you the clovers when you need them for leveling... so you don't need to go to powerleveling zones at all; also factor in that the earlier equiping of ML+ compared to other classes helps in amassing stats in the crucial early game.


I considered this, actually, and it may be well worth it as a myst class.

As muscle, probably not - you can time clover powerlevelling well enough in l10 to push you through. (even though l9 is more effective? didn't check the maths here.)

Don't see a need for the legend btw, a dictionary pull will well outweigh it.

Beret is probably still worth it as a moxie, basically a +20% items hat in certain areas.

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Post by DiscoNeckTed » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:44 pm

NotJim wrote:Beret is probably still worth it as a moxie, basically a +20% items hat in certain areas.


It's hard to justify a pull for only +5% more items than the ice-pick.
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Post by Pantsless » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:03 pm

DarthDud wrote:So skipping the KGE, and no oxy-drop, means you can hit the ascii art as semi-rare #1, right as you're just hitting L9. This gets you the clovers when you need them for leveling...


Are you suggesting this for day 1, in order to get two days worth of putty sheeting (=11 ASCII arts)? I know that's way more trinkets than you can reasonably trade, even if the hermit is feeling generous, but are the extra clovers worth it?

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Post by stupac2 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:19 pm

Pantsless wrote:Are you suggesting this for day 1, in order to get two days worth of putty sheeting (=11 ASCII arts)? I know that's way more trinkets than you can reasonably trade, even if the hermit is feeling generous, but are the extra clovers worth it?


No. On day one you only play ~50 turns, so you're nowhere near a semirare. The idea is to putty it on day 2 for 5, maybe 6 asciis (I do five so I can also putty a machine, but how many clovers the hermit has is a consideration). Then you get a buttload of clovers and trinkets.

Your second semirare would be something else, eyedrops or inhaler, probably. And you only get two semirares.

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Post by kindia » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:19 pm

if you are able to get to sonofa beach on day 2, then getting 2 days worth of ASCII wouldnt be as good 5 ASCII and 5 lobsterfrogmen.

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Post by Pantsless » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:54 pm

stupac2 wrote:No. On day one you only play ~50 turns, so you're nowhere near a semirare.

Right, I should have phrased my question as: Is it worth getting the ASCII on day one and moving the stat days to 1-2 instead of 2-3? (for non-myst)
Your second semirare would be something else, eyedrops or inhaler, probably. And you only get two semirares.

I still think eyedrops are overrated for the filthworms. Maybe I'll change my mind once I finally get RNG screwed while doing that sidequest without them.

kindia wrote:if you are able to get to sonofa beach on day 2, then getting 2 days worth of ASCII wouldnt be as good 5 ASCII and 5 lobsterfrogmen.


You speedsters blow my mind; I never even considered the possibility of getting there on day 2. What would you use your day 3 putty on?

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:57 pm

kindia wrote:if you are able to get to sonofa beach on day 2, then getting 2 days worth of ASCII wouldnt be as good 5 ASCII and 5 lobsterfrogmen.

That won't happen on a 3 day run.
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Post by stupac2 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:39 pm

Pantsless wrote:Right, I should have phrased my question as: Is it worth getting the ASCII on day one and moving the stat days to 1-2 instead of 2-3? (for non-myst)


I'm going to go with "no", but someone would need to do the math to back that up.

I still think eyedrops are overrated for the filthworms. Maybe I'll change my mind once I finally get RNG screwed while doing that sidequest without them.


It's the filthworms and the upper chamber, that probably balances it out a bit. Although, once again, one would need to do the math.

You speedsters blow my mind; I never even considered the possibility of getting there on day 2. What would you use your day 3 putty on?


You really wouldn't, that'd be mind-blowing speed or excessive turn-generation. Putty is pretty much sonoafbeach/nun day 3, ascii day 2, and bloopers day 1. There miiight be something better, but I haven't seen it.

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Post by Pantsless » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:17 am

stupac2 wrote:Putty is pretty much sonoafbeach/nun day 3, ascii day 2, and bloopers day 1. There miiight be something better, but I haven't seen it.


It seems like there must be a better use on Day 1 than bloopers, at least for those with olfaction or access to an extractor. Olfaction already gets you slightly better than 1.5 white pixels per adventure, meaning that each use of the putty saves just under 1 adventure (or 1/3 of a pie). Intuitively that seems underwhelming, though maybe I'm just spoiled by the Day 2/3 uses. Any ideas here?

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Post by stupac2 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:46 am

Pantsless wrote:It seems like there must be a better use on Day 1 than bloopers, at least for those with olfaction or access to an extractor. Olfaction already gets you slightly better than 1.5 white pixels per adventure, meaning that each use of the putty saves just under 1 adventure (or 1/3 of a pie). Intuitively that seems underwhelming, though maybe I'm just spoiled by the Day 2/3 uses. Any ideas here?


I think it's because with a bit under 50 adventures played day on (average-ish) there are just very few places to use it at all. And it has a decent ML for day 1, and getting 6 bloopers is 18 pixels which means you only need 2 pies, saving you at least 1 pull and 4 fullness, all for, what, 10 adventures on average? I'm not positive if it's always the best idea, but if you get a first- or second-turn blooper, it's probably worth it.

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Post by lordhades15 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:24 am

You only need 5 bloopers to guarantee having enough pixels with two pies.

The extra fight for the 6th blooper probably isn't worth it.
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Post by stupac2 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:50 am

I thought they were 6-10 pixels, but they're 8-10. So you're right! Hooray math!

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Post by So Very Invisible » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:21 pm

Delicious pie AND delicious math! What more could you want?

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Post by DarthDud » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:20 pm

Log.

See log for thoughts, a little bit further down the thread. In short, the run went beautifully. I would only make minor changes, as outlined in that thread. RNG didn't like me so much, though.

To wit, check this part out.
Compared to KKK.
Code:

The Defiled Cyrpt: +10
Battlefield (Frat Uniform): -8
Fantasy Airship: +1
Copse of the Deep Fat Friars: +15
Dune Gnome Quest: +5
Pirates: -5
Hidden City: +1
Ancient Buried Pyramid: +8
Spooky Forest: +2
Typical Tavern Quest: ~~
Opening Spookyraven: -4
Themthar Hills: +5
Giant's Castle: -7
Orc Chasm: +6
Hidden Temple: +6
Palindome: +8
Lair of the Naugthy Sorceress: -3
Filthworms: +4
Junkyard: ~~
8-Bit Realm: +8
Goatlet: +1
Starting the War: +7
Haunted Bedroom: -1
Haunted Bathroom: +6
Black Forest: -3
Outskirts of The Knob: ~~
Guano Junction: -5
Haunted Ballroom: -31
Wartime Sonofa Beach: +2
Degrassi Knoll: +2
Wormwood: -2
Beanbat Chamber: +1
Haunted Wine Cellar (Southwest): -4
Knob Goblin Harem: -5
Knob Goblin Kitchens: +6

Total = +36

Damn. And that's with spending ~30 turns leveling LESS than he did.

If we remove that leveling issue (which I simply did better than he did), we get:
Total = +61. (Note, this is a fair number, since we both got the cellar unlock first turn in ballroom at L11.) This is how much longer my actual questing took than him. Wow. That's crazy bad.

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Post by Eleron » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:57 pm

DarthDud wrote:In short, the run went beautifully. I
Beanbat Chamber: +1
That's
crazy bad.

Indeed.

Good luck next time :)

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Post by Kevlar » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:50 pm

Here was me expecting a post in the bragg forum, not one hidden away in discussion ;) Decent run though.
grrrrrrr

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Post by Pantsless » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:35 pm

Darth,

Thanks for the log. So whats the plan if your day 1 rations are 2 franks & 1 schnapps? Do you pull the second rations and save the RoC for day 2?

Also, noob question: what's the cleesh trick for the gremlins?

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:49 pm

Pantsless wrote:Also, noob question: what's the cleesh trick for the gremlins?

If you cleesh a monster, you can use a flyer on them a second time. Since you don't really need to kill a gremlin unless it's the one with the right tool, you might as well get extra flyer ML out of the fight.
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Post by DarthDud » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:35 am

Pantsless wrote:Thanks for the log. So whats the plan if your day 1 rations are 2 franks & 1 schnapps? Do you pull the second rations and save the RoC for day 2?

Nah, you don't pull the second rations. I mean, unless you need the booze badly (I, for instance, summoned 0 umbrellas on day 1) and there's crap in the brewery. In which case, sure, you can swap the RoC with the rations. But, typically it shouldn't be an issue, even with only 1 schnapps.

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Post by rottingflesh » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:37 am

lostcalpolydude wrote:
Pantsless wrote:Also, noob question: what's the cleesh trick for the gremlins?

If you cleesh a monster, you can use a flyer on them a second time. Since you don't really need to kill a gremlin unless it's the one with the right tool, you might as well get extra flyer ML out of the fight.


This is assuming your scope says you dont need gremlin juice... Though I guess you can just pull that.

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Post by Pantsless » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:29 am

lostcalpolydude wrote:
Pantsless wrote:Also, noob question: what's the cleesh trick for the gremlins?

If you cleesh a monster, you can use a flyer on them a second time. Since you don't really need to kill a gremlin unless it's the one with the right tool, you might as well get extra flyer ML out of the fight.


Thanks for the explanation, though I'm still not clear on when this would be worth it; you're giving up the stats the gremlin would have given at the end of the fight in exchange for what, +1 flyer ML? I guess I can see it if you were planning on a free runaway (navel ring or tattered scrap), but otherwise it really doesn't seem worth it, unless you've overleveled and have no need for the stats. What am I missing here?

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:05 pm

It isn't just +1ML, because you can have at least +79 ML going at the time (MCD, sickle, carnivore x 2 (if not better), aria at level 12). There is a stat loss, but the flyered ML isn't negligible. My guess is that you save more turns doing this than you lose on gong/absinthe/clover leveling to make up for the lost stats, but I haven't actually used CLEESH on gremlins.
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Post by DarthDud » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:52 pm

Yes, you get the ML+ you have towards flyers and leveling, still. But you still miss out on stats. And, since I was doing the nuns before I needed to have the arena done, I didn't need the extra double-flyered ML to finish in time. I was just stuck in pre-putty mindset, where I would have needed it. So, I lost some stats, probably cost me 1 turn, as I noted in my log.

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Post by Pantsless » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:59 pm

lostcalpolydude wrote:It isn't just +1ML, because you can have at least +79 ML going at the time (MCD, sickle, carnivore x 2 (if not better), aria at level 12).


Ah, that makes quite a bit more sense, then; I didn't realize that +ML still applied to the CLEESHed monster. (I seem to remember getting my ass handed to me by a newt at some point, now I finally understand why).

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