Yellow Ray

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stupac2
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Yellow Ray

Post by stupac2 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:02 pm

Where do people see the yellow ray being useful? The harem girls, elite guards, miners, war outfits, and filthworms are things that come to my mind as obvious choices.

Another interesting question is, "Does this obsolete the 3-day run?" Now that you can have a 1-turn harem or miner outfit or war outfit, pull lists for 2-dayers get much more open, and 3-dayers are probably looking pretty ridiculous. Kujjie's run will almost certainly be crushed pretty soon.

Oh, also consider this a place to spade how often the ray resets per day, if it does at all (which it seems to). I'm going to try 200 turns tomorrow.

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Post by Fred Nefler » Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:44 pm

Choices of yellow ray uses (once we figure out how many you can actually get and when) are also interesting for hardcore, especially since the "obvious" choices are spaced so far apart as to make it hard to get them in consecutive days, or getting them in consecutive days could mean delaying your access to the Knob Lab (even if you already have the KGE outfit).

Getting to the mine on day 2 seems like a hard task in general, especially with the desire to bank turns for the stat day you usually have on day 3. So you could go for a KGE via ray on day 1 and then the harem outfit on day 2 (letting you either use your oxydrop semi-rare on a consumable, or even letting you go for a non-drop semi-rare counter), but that will likely prevent you from having actual access to the lab until day 2 (when you can defeat the King to get the key) unless you get lucky.

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Post by So Very Invisible » Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:28 pm

What about slime consumables? I'd think if you have the fullness/drunk to spare and an extra ray to use that the extra ML would be nice.

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Post by stupac2 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:09 pm

I'd rather pull an alveolus in SC, but in HC that might be worth considering.

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Post by NotJim » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:47 am

Not to mention you get 3x wads from the rags, no?

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Post by salien » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:30 pm

The rags are conditional, so no. (Everything except food/booze from the slime is conditional, it's how they make the different tiers appear to be different monsters.)

As to use in SC, it doesn't really make sense to say you'd rather pull an alveolus, since neither stops you from doing the other; and either way you're assuming you've already hit all the good major yellow ray targets. (The ones that would save you pulls.) Unless you extend the good yellow ray targets to blurs, the Bob with the ketchup hound, last F'c'le item, etc. Depends on what the exact mechanics are for major rays; just had a clannie get 2 major yellows in 2 turns (as in, right after each other), without the fam equip.

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Post by stupac2 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:41 pm

salien wrote:just had a clannie get 2 major yellows in 2 turns (as in, right after each other), without the fam equip.
...That completely throws off everything I've been spading. Are you sure it wasn't a minor that killed and he just got all the drops?

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:03 pm

salien wrote:last F'c'le item
Another conditional drop.
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Post by NardoLoopa » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:14 pm

stupac2 wrote:
salien wrote:just had a clannie get 2 major yellows in 2 turns (as in, right after each other), without the fam equip.
...That completely throws off everything I've been spading. Are you sure it wasn't a minor that killed and he just got all the drops?
Maybe they were used on turn 199 and 200?
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Post by slackerjack » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:31 pm

stupac2 wrote:
salien wrote:just had a clannie get 2 major yellows in 2 turns (as in, right after each other), without the fam equip.
...That completely throws off everything I've been spading. Are you sure it wasn't a minor that killed and he just got all the drops?
I asked around in /clan about this a few hours ago. The clannie who reported it realized it was a mistake later, but forgot to tell Salien (or didn't have a chance, or something--you get the idea).

Anyway, your spading is un-thrown-off. Hoo Ray!

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Post by salien » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:52 pm

stupac2 wrote:
salien wrote:just had a clannie get 2 major yellows in 2 turns (as in, right after each other), without the fam equip.
...That completely throws off everything I've been spading. Are you sure it wasn't a minor that killed and he just got all the drops?
I was about to answer this, but seems SJ cleared it up already. Sorry for spreading misinformation. :)

Have you tested for multiples on the recharge? As in, use a major yellow, spend 200 turns, use a major yellow, then immediately try for another major yellow?

Actually, do we know if anything special happens if a minor yellow ray kills the monster? I'm guessing nothing (that would be seriously overpowered, not to mention a PITA), just curious if it was tested.
lostcalpolydude wrote:
salien wrote:last F'c'le item
Another conditional drop.
Yeah, I thought of that, discarded it, then thought of it again and forgot why I discarded it, heh.

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Post by stupac2 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:07 pm

salien wrote:Have you tested for multiples on the recharge? As in, use a major yellow, spend 200 turns, use a major yellow, then immediately try for another major yellow?

Actually, do we know if anything special happens if a minor yellow ray kills the monster? I'm guessing nothing (that would be seriously overpowered, not to mention a PITA), just curious if it was tested.
I have tested neither of those, at least to my recollection (I may have tested the first suggestion). I feel like people have reported doing similar things in the thread, however.

Also, that's good news about the mess-up, it would be ridiculous if the mechanism could allow for 1-turn recharge.

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:17 pm

So I was thinking about the war outfit some, and I realized that fighting an enemy that drops it requires having the regular frat or hippy outfit (maybe either one works, maybe it matters which one, it doesn't really matter here). In SC I think that means finding a different target on day 3. Perhaps the war hippy outfit. Maybe the last filthworm gland (or the middle one if the RNG hates you).
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Post by stupac2 » Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:48 pm

I think the war hippy outfit is the best bet. It saves up to three pulls that save 8 turns. Unless you're getting some really bad RNG fuck-age, the filthworm glands don't take that long. On the other hand, you can get a 1-turn war start, which means no hippy outfit. Then force the gland.

It also might be smart to try to separate the start of the war and the filthworms by as many turns as possible to do both, but I don't think you can ever get 100 turns between them (in HC quite possible, but in SC it seems too unmanageable).

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Post by rottingflesh » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:20 pm

stupac2 wrote:It also might be smart to try to separate the start of the war and the filthworms by as many turns as possible to do both, but I don't think you can ever get 100 turns between them (in HC quite possible, but in SC it seems too unmanageable).
Is it going to be optimal to pull the equipment for the boulder in softcore?

In HC you won't get the equipment, so you'll need to spread it out 150 turns, which probably won't happen with the normal strategy, but you could eke out a bit longer of a buffer if you decided to beam for the royal guard's gland. This way, you can do the entire pyramid and a bit of the war to keep the counter running down. You might try putting the DoD in this part as well, but you'll be throwing away zaps by waiting until the last day.

Or you can do what I just did in the game today. Yellow ray the frat uniform, rollover the rest of your turns, and leave the gland for the first Yellow ray of tomorrow!
Last edited by rottingflesh on Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by stupac2 » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:59 pm

rottingflesh wrote:Is it going to be optimal to pull the equipment for the boulder in softcore?
Possibly.
In HC you won't get the equipment...
That's not at all what I'm hearing, although that might be confined to the 3-day stunt.

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Post by Awsomo » Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:33 am

Well the possibility of 3 dayers has definitely not been confirmed. So far my conclusion is that the equipment isn't worth it in HC (for 4 dayers) unless your telescope shows a truly terrible fate in the lair. I think the people who are hoping on the equipment bandwagon are the same fanboys who hopped on the bandersnatch equipment bandwagon right when it came out. Thats just my opinion though, it could be totally wrong since I haven't ascended with the new fam yet.

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Post by NotJim » Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:31 am

stupac2 wrote:
In HC you won't get the equipment...
That's not at all what I'm hearing, although that might be confined to the 3-day stunt.
There's no possible way the equipment is worth it in HC, due to drastically diminishing returns after yoinking outfit pieces. Unless you have the worst tower in mankind or something.

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:38 am

I was the one that brought it up, which goes to show that I don't have a clue about HC.
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Post by MonsterERB » Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:13 am

The biggest problem for 3-day HCNP is still turn generation. The lowest turncount HC run is 790 (Seaweed's 11-day HCO); the lowest turncount HCNP run is 825 (hellsfruition's 4-day HCNP). HCO will naturally have lower turncount, due to more chances to summon stickers, use Friars buffs, use snatch runaways, etc. Even if you say the boulder can cut 30-40 turns off a 3-day attempt, you're still going to need to generate 780-800 turns in three days. The only time I could see this being possible is if they have another "Alliday" on April Fools' Day next year, but even that's a stretch.
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Post by stupac2 » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:03 pm

NotJim wrote:There's no possible way the equipment is worth it in HC, due to drastically diminishing returns after yoinking outfit pieces. Unless you have the worst tower in mankind or something.
What? Then what equipment is darth getting first-thing in the 3-day stunt? I thought it was the boulder's...

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Post by otoshidama » Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:30 pm

stupac2 wrote:What? Then what equipment is darth getting first-thing in the 3-day stunt? I thought it was the boulder's...
Well, just because he's trying it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

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Post by Awsomo » Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:12 pm

Darth has a man crush on the he boulder.

He made me feel like an idiot for thinking the equipment was a bad idea. I'm glad someone else is agreeing with me though :)

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Post by otoshidama » Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:34 am

I don't really have the ascension experience to say Darth is wrong, but I tend to think going to the cake-shaped arena is a bad idea.

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:19 am

You aren't just getting the he-boulder's equipment, you also get 9 turns of experience on your bander which by itself will probably give an extra free runaway every day.
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Post by brb » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:17 am

I personally don't think boulder equip is worth it in hc. Haven't thought it out completely. Just initial reaction. I will say I was right about bander equip, though. :P

If it is optimal somehow, 25% of runs will be screwed unless the arena changes.

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Post by lordhades15 » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:45 am

*coughs*arena revamp soon? :wink: *coughs*
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Post by Suendenbock » Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:55 pm

Is that a hint? =P

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Post by TeKRunneR » Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:47 pm

lostcalpolydude wrote:You aren't just getting the he-boulder's equipment, you also get 9 turns of experience on your bander which by itself will probably give an extra free runaway every day.
... and on a 3-dayer that's a grand total of 3 extra runaways.

Besides, can't say I've given much thought to that (because NP is evil D:), but wouldn't a 3-dayer imply playing something like ~250 turns on day 1, ~150 day 2 and 400 day 3? In this case, the equipment would increase your ray count from 6 to, err, 7 (or 8 if you play >200 turns on day 2?). The numbers are pulled out of my ass, but I shouldn't be that far from reality.

In any case, the marginal value of a yellow ray when you already get 7 in a run is quite low (says he who disintegrated a walzer today D:).

Anyway, we'll all have a good laugh when Darth gets a lead necklace.

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Post by So Very Invisible » Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:16 pm

Unrelated to current discussion, but related to what I said earlier: What about turn 1 major yellowing a slime? (In HC). You'll be playing more than 150 turns (That is the reset, right?), so you can just come back to the harem around turn 150, and grab it then. Granted, if you can't get stench resist otherwise, it probably isn't worth it, since you have to put off levels 4 and 5 for 150 turns, but I think that squeezing a second ray into day 1 is an interesting thought.[/code]

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Post by rottingflesh » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:35 pm

Getting a turn 1 ray against a slime isn't as simple as it seems. You have 2-4 rounds before you instantly die from the slime's first hit, and each round only has a 1 in 3 chance of the yellow eye showing up. You have about a 30% failure rate.

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Post by Awsomo » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:42 pm

TeKRunneR wrote: In any case, the marginal value of a yellow ray when you already get 7 in a run is quite low (says he who disintegrated a walzer today D:).
Ya from what i've figured the 7th best yellow ray in a run depending on your situation will probably save only 2 adventures, 9th ray will save maybe 1.

I don't know about a turn 1 yellow ray but i like the idea of a red ray on the first combat adventure (yes i buffer my turns in HCNP i'm a wierdo like that)

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Post by Fred Nefler » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:39 am

rottingflesh wrote:Getting a turn 1 ray against a slime isn't as simple as it seems. You have 2-4 rounds before you instantly die from the slime's first hit, and each round only has a 1 in 3 chance of the yellow eye showing up. You have about a 30% failure rate.
If I understand what CDM said, you shouldn't be able to get the same ray color twice in a row. So assuming rays are always equally likely (of those that can show), it'd be a 1/3 on the first round and a 1/2 chance on all following rounds (except the round following a yellow, which would be 0).

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Post by kevbob » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:03 am

rottingflesh wrote:Getting a turn 1 ray against a slime isn't as simple as it seems. You have 2-4 rounds before you instantly die from the slime's first hit, and each round only has a 1 in 3 chance of the yellow eye showing up. You have about a 30% failure rate.
it's been a long time for me since i've done a real speed run, but i can't imagine that this has changed at all:

if my run is going to fuck up, i'd rather it be on the first turn than the last.

i mean, if there's a Risk to take in a run that's Reward is a faster run,
i'd rather it be sooner than later in a run so that if it all blow's up in my face i haven't spent 3 (5, 10, whatever) days busting ass only to get fucked.

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Post by Awsomo » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:05 am

If combat lasts 3 rounds you have a 83.3% chance of getting a yellow. If it lasts 4 rounds you have a 91.7% chance of getting it.

Pretty good odds

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Post by DarthDud » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:24 am

NotJim wrote: There's no possible way the equipment is worth it in HC, due to drastically diminishing returns after yoinking outfit pieces. Unless you have the worst tower in mankind or something.
It only has to save 10 turns (actually, less) to be worth it. If you get, say, 3 extra rays on a 3-dayer, even after going against your Prime Suspects, the additional flexibility and quantity of rays should easily do that.

I mean, that's like 3 turns per yellow ray, man. Even just on random pieces of gear, like pirates, that can pay off. Plus the extra red rays are probably half a turn saved at least.

It's way better an idea than the bandersnatch equipment. Especially since the snatch isn't a very compelling familiar in HC outside of the runaways. The combat stuff doesn't matter that much, you'd rather have a different volley. It's not comparable to that at all... it's more complex.

Anyways, in a normal 4-dayer I wouldn't get it, I think. For what I want to do for the 3-dayer I ahve good reason.

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Post by TeKRunneR » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:40 am

Fred Nefler wrote:If I understand what CDM said, you shouldn't be able to get the same ray color twice in a row. So assuming rays are always equally likely (of those that can show), it'd be a 1/3 on the first round and a 1/2 chance on all following rounds (except the round following a yellow, which would be 0).
From what I've seen it's not even just that. I have yet to wait more than 3 rounds to get the ray I want, so I just assumed that colors cycle, starting from two randomly chosen rays. So if you start with blue > red, the next one will always be yellow. I could be wrong, but that's never failed me so far.

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Post by rottingflesh » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:43 am

I've definitely had it go blue>red>blue.

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Post by TeKRunneR » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:24 am

Yes, SD reported that as well. Guess I've just been lucky so far.

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Post by Awsomo » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:21 am

DarthDud wrote: I mean, that's like 3 turns per yellow ray, man. Even just on random pieces of gear, like pirates, that can pay off. Plus the extra red rays are probably half a turn saved at least.
From the logs i've looked at, admittedly only like 5 or 6, (why aren't there more 4 day or near 4 day logs available publicly? :P ) the pirate cove takes on average only like 8 adventures. A yellow ray then on average would save slightly less than 2 adventures. Pirates might be the 7th best yellow ray too right?
DarthDud wrote: Anyways, in a normal 4-dayer I wouldn't get it, I think. For what I want to do for the 3-dayer I ahve good reason.
Ooooohhh secret strategy. I'm intrigued

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Post by rottingflesh » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:38 pm

kevbob wrote:
rottingflesh wrote:Getting a turn 1 ray against a slime isn't as simple as it seems. You have 2-4 rounds before you instantly die from the slime's first hit, and each round only has a 1 in 3 chance of the yellow eye showing up. You have about a 30% failure rate.
it's been a long time for me since i've done a real speed run, but i can't imagine that this has changed at all:

if my run is going to fuck up, i'd rather it be on the first turn than the last.

i mean, if there's a Risk to take in a run that's Reward is a faster run,
i'd rather it be sooner than later in a run so that if it all blow's up in my face i haven't spent 3 (5, 10, whatever) days busting ass only to get fucked.
I'm sorry? All I said was that you have a 30% failure rate on that ONE TURN, not your whole run being fucked.

Maybe you were responding to what brb said about obtaining the equipment? Because in that case, I think the problem is not in that your run gets fucked 25% of the time, but that it is the possibility of your run being fucked by something so simple, and with a decent chance of occurring. I despise the tavern for this reason, because you can get a ridiculous amount of drunkenness before finding the lenses, and that can easily cost you a day.

ALSO, why would your run failing on turn 1 be any better than failing on turn 800? You've still wasted a week or two working on a leadin and then waiting for the stat days to line up... A run is more salvageable at turn 800, because you've already hit a number of checkpoints (ex. level 4 without consuming) that usually hinder completion.

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Post by DiscoNeckTed » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:29 pm

I would rather trip on the starting blocks than in front of the finish line.
Because I'm a normal person.
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Post by slackerjack » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:59 pm

DiscoNeckTed wrote:I would rather trip on the starting blocks than in front of the finish line.
Alternatively, if I knew the starting blocks in the middle/outside lanes were going to be greased up a quarter of the time, I'd opt for an inner lane despite the possible minor disadvantage.

Note that I'm assuming the race is 200 or 400 meters.

Also note my apologies for the threadjack.

Somewhat on-topic: Arena needs guaranteed familiar-specific equip. At least the first one of an ascension, or something like that.

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Post by feng shweez » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:10 pm

I started to write up a post arguing why Darth's Boulder-equipment strategy was a bad idea. I wrote out possible weird places it might be worth it to do weird strategy and realized that in a three day it might just be reasonable.

Cool.
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Post by kevbob » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:47 pm

rottingflesh wrote: I'm sorry? All I said was that you have a 30% failure rate on that ONE TURN, not your whole run being fucked.
ok.
rottingflesh wrote: ALSO, why would your run failing on turn 1 be any better than failing on turn 800?
because i'd rather not waste X hours of my life to failure when i could waste LESS than X.

inre leadins: let me reiterate: it's BEEN A LONG time. in NS11, stasising uphill both ways to the icy peak, lead in times were different.

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Post by NotJim » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:42 am

feng shweez wrote:I started to write up a post arguing why Darth's Boulder-equipment strategy was a bad idea. I wrote out possible weird places it might be worth it to do weird strategy and realized that in a three day it might just be reasonable.
Is not... too much shit to be done, yo.

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Post by p4n1q » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:10 am

Today I used the boulder to get to level three after two combats.

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Post by bumcheekcity » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:17 am

Out of interest, which two combats and how did you do it? Yellow ray kills your opponent outright, do the other two rays do so as well?

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Post by HippoKing » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:46 am

Yellow ray in the sewer, Red Ray anyone else. MCD on max, weight skills, apples etc.

Only the Yellow wipes people out instantly. The Blue major stuns for a few rounds, the Red major gives you stats (significantly more than you'd get from a Volley type).

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Post by zombiepops » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:48 am

are the major rays independent of each other? IE, I use a yellow major ray, and set a counter for 150 turns. I know I need to wait the 150 turns to use the next major yellow ray, but can I go off and use a red major ray in the next combat?
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Post by So Very Invisible » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:02 pm

Yep. Totally independent.

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MonsterERB
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Post by MonsterERB » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:02 pm

Yes, the major rays are independent of each other. I'd definitely recommend getting a major yellow and a major red ray in early enough on each day, that you can get a second (or even third) one in as the day progresses. And, AFAIK, each ray's counter is independent of the others.
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p4n1q
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Post by p4n1q » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:04 am

I'm pretty sure that with the right skills and some luck, you could be level three on turn one.

feng shweez
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Post by feng shweez » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:37 am

NotJim wrote:Is not... too much shit to be done, yo.
Well that can be said of the 3-dayer in general, no?
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Antipasta
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Post by Antipasta » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:06 pm

Hey,

I've got an initial test version of a major ray counter GM script for the he-boulder at http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/56245, try it out if you feel daring.

Known bugs:
- won't reset the counter if you try to use a major ray against a boss
- might not detect you equipping quadroculars if you swap them for another +5 lb piece of familiar equipment

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Fred Nefler
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Post by Fred Nefler » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:21 pm

For what it's worth, mafia already has tracking support for ray recharges.

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Post by Antipasta » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:28 pm

Fred Nefler wrote:For what it's worth, mafia already has tracking support for ray recharges.
Yes, and that's why I was slow to make one, but there were multiple requests from the non-mafia crowd.

My testing so far has mostly been to see if it agreed with the mafia counters...

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