10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

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Sambal
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10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:31 am

I think it should be doable without a FoB. I'll write down some ravings here to figure out what would be going on and input will be well appreciated. The two main resources I am looking at are my my current BCC profile and my DitR run:
BCC: http://bumcheekcity.com/kol/profile.php?u=sambal
DitRIII: http://www.alliancefromhell.com/viewtop ... =39&t=3840

First of all I have to consider what to perm. I figure I'll go AT again so I can buy MM, MMM, Phat Leon's and Polka inrun. I think I'll perm inigo's as even if I can't cast it day 1, not having to farm a tender saves me 30 turns of crafting in day 2, 3 and 4.

With a guaranteed clover on day 1 I can run a fairy for a smart skull if I am lucky, then I can use 1 or 2 clovers for remaining brains/skulls so I wouldn't have to waste a lot of turns farming with a fairy instead of going to a higher ML place where I can run a volley.

Turn generation on day 1 is going to be a major thing this run as hitting level 6 with room for 2 hell ramen should pretty much enable me to get liver on day 1, which in turn should help me generating a lot more turns. Assuming I manage this my diet for the full run will be something like (assuming an even distribution from lunchboxes and adding ode for the drinks):
6 fortune cookies (6/6)
4.5 Knob pasties (29.25/4.5)
7 badass pies (63/14)
2 pumpkin pie (33/6)
1 grue egg omelet (24/4)
4 Hell ramen (100/24)
1.5 Blackberries or some such depending on lunchboxes (2.25/1.5)
3 milk (30/0)
(287.5/60)

3 blended swills (48/12)
15 SHC's (300/60)
4.5 knob coffee (33.75/4.5)
6 pumpkin beers (42.25/6.5)
0.5 cream stout or some such depending on lunchboxes (1.75/0.5)
(425.75/87)

2 roc feathers (16/8)
5 aguas (37.5/20) (YRing a beetle for a filter)
4 pixie sticks (30/16)
3 karmas (67.5/15)
(151/55)

Rollover yields 160 adventures assuming no pocket watches or chrome weapon for a total of 1024.25 turns. Looking at my last run that should be sufficient to kill her naughtiness. Not getting day 1 liver will cost me 20+0.5*3.5+0.5*6.5=25 turns, so I should look into whether it would cost me extra turns to get liver that quickly to see whether it is worth going for but I am fairly certain it is, especially the fact that I need to get hell ramen on day 1 anyways.

An important thing I am still not sure about is the RQG, yellow raying a snapdragon yields a lot of stats but gives one fullness. On day 1 this could mean eating 1 less knob pastie, or 5.5 less turn generated. 5.5 turns spent in the 8 bit realm with a 9 lbs bugbear before hitting level 6 yields ~ 5.5*(55/8+1.5) = 46 mainstat and are useful in the long run as well opposed to turns spent early in the garden. Another thing is that I might not be able to get ode off before having to drink swill without the hatter's buff (10 + 3 + 2 = 15 buffed myst with the shiny ring and hairspray, 45 MP with MMM, I ended up not reaching more than 47 buffed MP last run when I had to drink) although the extra stats from adventures instead of fullness also increase myst so maybe I wouldn't need the buff when I go this route, meaning I could save it to start on friars. Another alternative could be a game grid token and powerleveling a turn or two in the sewers.

Tomorrow some planning on day 1 :).
Last edited by Sambal on Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 10 skill HCNP, is it doable?

Post by top1214 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:41 am

Have you checked out these runs?

13 skill win: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=3486

14 skill fail: http://www.alliancefromhell.com/viewtop ... =39&t=3618

Of course, those are several quest changes ago, so YMMV. Also, both had Olfaction.

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Re: 10 skill HCNP, is it doable?

Post by zombiepops » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:57 am

I think in all your excitement and mad planning, you forgot to mention exactly what your goal is; a 10 skill HCNP what? 4 day?
(or did I miss something? do I have to continue to wear the collar of shame if I did?)
what ever it is, I'm rooting for you! go! go! go!
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Re: 10 skill HCNP, is it doable?

Post by top1214 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:22 am

Yeah, he's going for a 4-dayer.

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Re: 10 skill HCNP, is it doable?

Post by top1214 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:07 am

Honestly, I think Sonata is a much better perm than Inigo's at this point. Yes Inigo's will take care of most of your crafting needs, but Sonata helps pretty much everywhere (Forest, Friars, Ballroom unlock, Powerleveling, Airship, Castle, War start, Poop deck, Palindome, Middle Chamber, Wand).

Also, w/out a combat suite, replacing early stats is hard.

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Re: 10 skill HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lotsofphil » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:52 pm

top1214 wrote: Also, w/out a combat suite, replacing early stats is hard.
Not exactly sure what you are talking about but you don't need to run any appreciable ML to ascend in 1024.5 turns. I know bmaher didn't. I know I didn't.

The more you have of (Mr. Store stuff, telescope, olfaction, hound) the easier it will be.

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Re: 10 skill HCNP, is it doable?

Post by top1214 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:12 pm

I just mean if you skip the cemetary, fun house, and ruins, I think you run out of things you can do.

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Re: 10 skill HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Kelemvor » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:15 pm

I think it's doable; ddintnst says that he didn't need the adventures from FoB to finish, and he didn't have stat days (though he did have olfaction).

I agree with lop that you want sonata over inigo's, especially since you don't have smooth movements. I also think you want day 1 liver -- it's 31 adventures to get and generates 25, but those 31 are probably worth about 1/3 of a sewerleveling turn each (with no combat skills, you probably can't survive in the ballroom until way after), so really it's 21 adventures to get and generates 25. It's not the end of the world if you don't get there, though.

Also also, are you sure you want a day 1 maid? Getting it day 1 generates 4 turns over clovering post-crypt; both ways use a clover. If you need it day 1, you have to get a grave robbing shovel and a smart skull; they're both 50% drops so we'll assume you can force the drop. The pre-crypt cemetery has 7 monsters, plus you need to get the grave adventure. Can you do all that in 4 turns (call it 5, accounting for stats)? I think it's highly unlikely.

I think your math is not quite right; you have 5.5*(55/8 + 1.5), but 35 is safe moxie, which means the attack is only 25, so with the bugbear ML it's really 45, or 40 stats, not 46. Also, you probably have to spend some resources to get to safe moxie (madrigal, mariachi, shiny ring, EW, and hair spray alone won't cut it). Not a big deal, I suppose. I think it depends on how confident you are in your ability to hit level 6; if it were me I would consider doing RQG and sewerleveling just to make sure. But you have more HC experience than I do. :)

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Re: 10 skill HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lotsofphil » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:18 pm

top1214 wrote:I just mean if you skip the cemetary, fun house, and ruins, I think you run out of things you can do.
Yeah, that makes sense.

Here is my 4/1017 log. It had 17 skills but might be of some use. I sewerleveled to get D1 liver. Like WM says, sewerleveling also gives you things to do between 5 and 6.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=3442

If you have a full scope you can do pirates in that gap. Probably tough without a way to kill them.

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Re: 10 skill HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:02 pm

With regards to perming, I do actually have smooth movement permed but didn't update my bcc since last run though. Updated it now. Do people still think smooth movement is a better perm than inigo's in that case? I'll still have to spend turns in the cemetery/fern's in order to get a chef. not having Inigo's forced me into the brawl for 25ish turns last run, using 2 clovers and farming a box which is about 35 turns to craft 3 swills and 15 SHC's (33 turns worth of crafting)... So if not perming inigo's I'd even consider mixing everything by spending turns and I am not sure whether sonata is going to save me 30 turns (assuming inigo's from day 2 on, which should definitely be doable with an AT leadin as soon as I hit 30 myst which should be around level 7).

Another thing that was talked about is a meat maid, I might clover for that later on although I don't think I'll have spare clovers for that (1 for RnR, 1-2 for chef, 1 for bat hole covers most of the day 1 and 2 clovers) so 3 turns for a maid where I'll also have to farm a box to get it and 1 turn to clover doesn't seem to be worth it for me and I don't see it being viable to get stuff together on day 2 for 6 turns without spending a whole lot more on it.

And indeed I don't have any fancy aftercore stuff like a scope or BHH rewards.

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Re: 10 skill HCNP, is it doable?

Post by top1214 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:26 pm

Honestly, I would probably perm sonata, loot, mojo, and madrigal (in that order) before Inigo's (unless I was chaining the last 3 AT runs) (I also have Olfaction, so mojo might be higher on my list, but you want it for day 1 ode).

My last 2 runs w/Inigo's I skipped making a tender, but I also had this gaping hole where I didn't have anything to do questwise. I'm taking I used a telescope buff and made a serum of sarcasm to get in the bedroom before level 6 didn't have anything to do. If I ran the numbers, I might've been able to sewerlevel, but my run was seriously strapped for time. I think you want to wait to be able to noodlebutt before going after Inigo's.

Again, I have Olfaction (but no torso, hipster, stickers, etc.), so my 8-bit is fairly quick. YMMV.

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Re: 10 skill HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:31 pm

2 things I noticed in those logs, I see a lot of stat fams where I'd take a fairy normally e.g. outskirts until a hat drops and cemetery until a skull drops. Is it because of the reasonably high odds to get one on the way still or should I still use a fairy in those places?

And the other is RQG, is it really worth the fullness?

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Re: 10 skill HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lotsofphil » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:39 pm

Sambal wrote:2 things I noticed in those logs, I see a lot of stat fams where I'd take a fairy normally e.g. outskirts until a hat drops and cemetery until a skull drops. Is it because of the reasonably high odds to get one on the way still or should I still use a fairy in those places?

And the other is RQG, is it really worth the fullness?
Grain of salt: I feel increasingly out-of-touch with low-skill runs.

A 6-lb fairy doesn't do much for you. If you need a chef, I would run all the +item you can in the outskirts, though.
I would not run a fairy in the cemetary. You are there for ruins unlock, not smart skulls (I would think).

For what you are doing RQG is only good if it gives you Day 1 liver. If you struggle for L4 in 40 turns then 4-days with 10 skills is likely too lofty a goal.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:42 pm

That is why I have been running a hatrack there, that is about 50 % + item on the one item you want there. Still worth running that I guess then? And fairy in cemetery maybe if there is only 1 clover on day 1? Or just run stats and clover for skull, farm brain?

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by top1214 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:01 pm

Sambal wrote:2 things I noticed in those logs, I see a lot of stat fams where I'd take a fairy normally e.g. outskirts until a hat drops and cemetery until a skull drops. Is it because of the reasonably high odds to get one on the way still or should I still use a fairy in those places?

And the other is RQG, is it really worth the fullness?
Personally, I Olfacted brains (which is the right thing), and I was willing to take the day 1 hit on crafting b/c I thought I could get to the cyrpt before crafting. The fact I lucked into a skull during the unlock was a bonus. Also, skulls have high droprates (50%, so 60% w/MLS, +PP). This was back when getting clovers cost turns. I don't know what you're supposed to do now.

As for a chef's hat, I just assumed one would happen. I wasn't worried about RNG screw, as I needed good RNG and stats to hit my goal.
lotsofphil wrote:
Grain of salt: I feel increasingly out-of-touch with low-skill runs.

A 6-lb fairy doesn't do much for you. If you need a chef, I would run all the +item you can in the outskirts, though.
I would not run a fairy in the cemetary. You are there for ruins unlock, not smart skulls (I would think).

For what you are doing RQG is only good if it gives you Day 1 liver. If you struggle for L4 in 40 turns then 4-days with 10 skills is likely too lofty a goal.
Me too, phil. I feel lost in the game at the moment, what with all the redos, and perming stuff. I'm very confused (it apparently doesn;t stop me from giving advice though).

You do need to get the shovel to drop (although it's also at 50%). But farming skulls is a bad idea. Getting one is a bonus.

I struggled horribly to get 4/40, and that 4 day attempt was one of my first times in RQG. It easily lets me do no stat day 5-dayers now. But I wouldn't dismiss phil...he's a better ascender than I.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lostcalpolydude » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:38 pm

I would probably use a hipster with the +item equipment in the outskirts over a 6 lb fairy. 0.83 mainstat/turn, free fights to speed up the encryption key, and +25% items.
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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Suendenbock » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:13 pm

I ran about +15 ML throughout my HC run and I am not very good. Granted I had the Stainless Steel Slacks. Still i think running some +ML is very possible with Hair Spray and Madigral.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:35 pm

Hitting level 4 in 40 turns never felt like much of a problem to me thus far, it is 160 primary substats, assuming 30 combats with MCD @ 10 and a sugar shirt in level 1 areas that translates to nearly 90 primary stats, a RR for about 10 substats, 2 moxie weeds for 12 substats I end up 48 stats short, which are covered by 8 turns of hipster in the cellar assuming I won't oneshot stuff in birdform and I don't get hipsterfights in there, or just general volley/hipster use.

Talking of hipster fights, I have a small problem there on low level. As soon as I turn on my MCD the hipster fights oneshot me, if I leave the MCD off I kill everything with a seal tooth before the hipster gives me his stats... That makes using the hipster reduce my stat gains while burning delay(), is that worth it?

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:39 pm

Suendenbock wrote:I ran about +15 ML throughout my HC run and I am not very good. Granted I had the Stainless Steel Slacks. Still i think running some +ML is very possible with Hair Spray and Madigral.
Yeah, I generally have my MCD on 10, magic/rave whistles when they drop, zapping my DoD stuff to rings of aggravate monster, buoybottoms when they drop and bugbear when possible, generally doable with a buff item or two.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lotsofphil » Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:24 pm

Suendenbock wrote:I ran about +15 ML throughout my HC run and I am not very good. Granted I had the Stainless Steel Slacks. Still i think running some +ML is very possible with Hair Spray and Madigral.
I meant no ML to take you out of being able to hit things (so you don't need a combat suite).

I wasn't trying to be down on RQG in general. In the context of setting a lofty goal, it shouldn't have a place in the run unless it lets you achieve something (Day 1 liver).

The RQG and I have a rocky relationship. I loved it but had to move on.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:57 pm

And the plan for day 1:
- Starting out by getting a big rock so I can make a RnR legend, will then summon a candyheart, sugar sheets, another candyheart and open the guild for MM and MMM after hitting 2.
- Jump to the outskirts, if I get a chef I'll just YR (will go over 150 turns anyways today and want to zap a harem girl/guard at the end of the day) that one for his hat, if anything else I'll RR it which should get me close to level 2.
- After that eating some moxie weeds and the forest, not sure whether I'll hipster it or not like I mentioned before (hipstering = no MCD for me so maybe I'll just get spleen and/or fatten my bander here instead).
- Should be hitting level 3 by now so I can go into the tavern. Birdforming here to get my first roc feather. Will use either my hipster for stats if I don't kill stuff too fast for the first +3 stats, or otherwise some more spleen/bander fattening.
- Now I'll run some numbers on stats needed for level 4, and I'll either farm some boxen or finish up the knob/pantry depending on stat needs to hit level 4 while going through a possible second birdform. In between of birdforms I'll kill the baron for his monocle.
- I'll start level 4 by spleening, and if I can get ode off I'll drink some swills.
- I like postponing bats/goblin king to day 2 so I can YR a harem girl at the end of this one and clover some sonars. Maybe I'll do some of it earlier if I didn't run into a chef on turn 1 and have a ray available at level 5.
- So my level 4 won't revolve around the bat cave but instead I'll get boxen, unlock fern's ruins and get a chef in the box, and start on the 8-bit realm while running a stat fam, some billiards with my organ grinder to get my badass pie for the day.
-- 30 turns in 8-bit is about 30*[(25+10)/8+3/3]=160 mainstat with a minihipster with +25 % item, or about 200 without the +25 % item.
-- 1 blended frozen swill, some goblin food and 2 feathers is about 100 main stat.
-- 4 turns in the billiards with smooth movement should be around 3 combats for 4 main stat.
-- 4 turns in the fun house should be around 5 main stat.
-- 11 turns in the cemetery with a volley should be around 50 main stat.
-- 12 turns in fern's tower with a fairy for about 30 main stat.

total of about 400 main stat, 200 short of where I want to be... But not that many turns spent but I cant think of much else to spend turns on now... Let me think about that a bit more and get back to it later unless people have some ideas. Maybe earlier bats or RQG after all...

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lotsofphil » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:11 pm

Sambal wrote: - So my level 4 won't revolve around the bat cave but instead I'll get boxen, unlock fern's ruins and get a chef in the box, and start on the 8-bit realm while running a stat fam, some billiards with my organ grinder to get my badass pie for the day.
-- 11 turns in the cemetery with a volley should be around 50 main stat.
-- 12 turns in fern's tower with a fairy for about 30 main stat
This looks good except for all this above. So many turns for brains/box servants. Have you thought about sewerleveling with the hipster like that G-D thread?

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:28 pm

lotsofphil wrote:
Sambal wrote: - So my level 4 won't revolve around the bat cave but instead I'll get boxen, unlock fern's ruins and get a chef in the box, and start on the 8-bit realm while running a stat fam, some billiards with my organ grinder to get my badass pie for the day.
-- 11 turns in the cemetery with a volley should be around 50 main stat.
-- 12 turns in fern's tower with a fairy for about 30 main stat
This looks good except for all this above. So many turns for brains/box servants. Have you thought about sewerleveling with the hipster like that G-D thread?
The 11 turns cemetery is unlocking the tower, I tend to need between 10-14 turns to unlock it, there are some things there that will depend on how things go, if I get a skull in the cemetery while unlocking I'll clover a brain, if I get a 2 clover day I'll clover both of em. And if it is a 2 clover day and I'd get a skull to drop I'll clover the bat cave and can get started there for some more stats.

I saw the thread indeed but I am not sure whether I'd be able to, I don't have any + init perms so only 50 % from the pool table, no fam weight buffs so my hipster would only be 16-8ish lbs and I have no noodles so I think that I wouldn't be able to do it for more than 1 or 2 turns I think if I need 2 hipster damaging actions. Or should I be able to get 2-4 killed you think?

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by top1214 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:34 pm

I think each token would allow for 2.5 turns of sewerleveling. W/out leash and emp, the best weight is going to be around say 27lbs (bicycle +symp +pool 7lb base), which is 87.5% action rate. At that weight, the hipster is going to average about 215 damage (although if it goes max, it would be at 300), so usually needing 2 attack actions. Attacks are 2/7 (let's just ignore the one round stuns/call them neutral), so you need 8 actions (stat and 2 attacks) on average, which take ~9.1 rounds. That's 9 rounds of finger stuns. At let's say 2.5 rounds/cuff, that's 4 cuffs.

The pool table is being used for both +init (though they still might get the jump!) and +weight, so don't forget to plan for that

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:37 pm

And talking about turns spent on boxed servants, maybe it is not worth it to get either of them already! For food I am looking at 4 hell ramen and 1 omelet that contain fancy ingredients and for booze 15 supercocks and 3 blended swills. That means a chef is worth 9 turns (5 if I get it on day 2) and a bartender 33 (30 if I get it on day 2).

Box is about 4 turns each, 2 clovers for the brain and skull (in a good scenario, with 1 clover it gets a lot worse. Counting a clover as 4 turns of powerleveling as I don't have the droprate to get enough cards to keep that going), 0.5 turns for the hat (some stats for running a hatrack and/or having to backfarm it) and 25 turns for beer lenses (breaks your day 1 by spending 25 turns in a low ML zone with a fairy) I'd say that neither of them is worth it...

Hmmmm.... would sonata really save me the 30 turns of manually making booze that inigo's would?

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:41 pm

top1214 wrote:I think each token would allow for 2.5 turns of sewerleveling. W/out leash and emp, the best weight is going to be around say 27lbs (bicycle +symp +pool 7lb base), which is 87.5% action rate. At that weight, the hipster is going to average about 215 damage (although if it goes max, it would be at 300), so usually needing 2 attack actions. Attacks are 2/7 (let's just ignore the one round stuns/call them neutral), so you need 8 actions (stat and 2 attacks) on average, which take ~9.1 rounds. That's 9 rounds of finger stuns. At let's say 2.5 rounds/cuff, that's 4 cuffs.

The pool table is being used for both +init (though they still might get the jump!) and +weight, so don't forget to plan for that
Hm, if I get two roc feathers and 1 agua for spleen I should be able to get two tokens so I could spend about 5 turns this way which is the missing 200 mainstat.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by top1214 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:10 pm

BTW, a pretty neat strategy for the bat hole (which I'm sure I can't be the only one to think of) is sugar shield on the parrot for stench resist, then clover for 2 sonars, then farm the 3rd + bean in the beanbat chamber. No need for the veil (or DGR) anymore!

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:17 pm

and are you sure 50 % is going to work, plugging numbers into the wiki equation with 50 for base init (just an assumption):

Code: Select all

 Initiative (in %) = (100 - 50) + 50 + max(0, 30 - 245) - 0 = -115
That means I'd never get the jump right? even if base init of sewer monsters would be 0 it is still -65 % chance for me to get the jump.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:18 pm

top1214 wrote:BTW, a pretty neat strategy for the bat hole (which I'm sure I can't be the only one to think of) is sugar shield on the parrot for stench resist, then clover for 2 sonars, then farm the 3rd + bean in the beanbat chamber. No need for the veil (or DGR) anymore!
Doesn't every section other than entryway require stench resistance?

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by top1214 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:37 pm

I don't think you understand how "max" works (as in take the maximum value...0 is > -215, so take 0).

Also, only guano junction ever required stench resistance. Clovering and then going to beanbat can take at most 7 turns/runaways (as a screambat will come along, and you needed to grab a bean anyway.)

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:02 pm

ah, my bad there, sort of expected it to only work against us and not in favor of us like the attack-moxie damage modifier so rather than reading it properly I just assumed that would screw me over ;).

Base init for sewer monsters is about 60-70 then?

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lotsofphil » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:42 am

Sambal wrote:ah, my bad there, sort of expected it to only work against us and not in favor of us like the attack-moxie damage modifier so rather than reading it properly I just assumed that would screw me over ;).

Base init for sewer monsters is about 60-70 then?
The number you always hear for sewer init is 60% (as in 60% guarantees the jump). I've tried pestering people to test it but have not seen results yet.

50% init will give you the jump "most" of the time.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:27 am

If I'd decide to skip chef/tender, I'd end up not opening and going into the fun house. If I'd go this route is there any option to get base booze for a nightcap anywhere other than the cellar if I am really lucky?

An option would be eating a RQG food, 2 cookies and getting distilled fortified wines as a semi-rare instead of lunchboxing to cover my liver (2 swill, 3 pumpkin beers, 3 wines). Eating the RQG food is something that cannot be postponed until I actually know my booze situation though, although a "worst" case scenario there is that I'd eat a RQG food, a cookie and get 2 pasties such that my second pastie won't be used on day 1, which is about 3.5 day 1 turns vs. 60-70 stats which in turn seems a decent trade-off.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lotsofphil » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:42 am

It's lower turngen, but I do 6 flower schnapps, 2 swill and 1 swill for nightcap. You could make 3 of those flower schnapps into pumpkin beers.
I've seen people (Snark and Draco) get fruit from noob cave if you are pushing for an AC/SHC nightcap along with base booze from the cellar.

I wouldn't advocate losing turns to crafting throughout the run (without Inigos). If you're skipping a box servant (or postponing until you kill Bonerdagon) you should be looking at perming Inigos. I'm not sure if that is your plan.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:11 am

lotsofphil wrote:I wouldn't advocate losing turns to crafting throughout the run (without Inigos). If you're skipping a box servant (or postponing until you kill Bonerdagon) you should be looking at perming Inigos. I'm not sure if that is your plan.
The thing there is the sheer amount of resources it requires, eating a lot of badass pies and some pumpkin pies makes a chef worth 9 turns over the entire run, the bartender is worth 33-35 turns over the entire run depending on whether or not I can get a SHC nightcap together for day 1.

Assuming I am lucky and get a hat the chef still requires ~6 turns for a box (50 % encounter rate, 20 % base drop rate, 20*(1+0.2+0.1+0.25)=~31 % modified drop rate), 2 clovers for a brain and a skull (alternative use is opening bat hole and getting boss bat done on day 1 so I have a lot of meat to work with) or a dozen turns farming brain if I only get 1 clover. Counting a clover as 3 turns that means it is 12 day 1 turns which are worth more than turns in general to save 9 over the course of the run.

The bartender starts with those same 12 turns and after that the shittiest bit comes in. No olfaction makes me spend a lot of turns in a very low ML area with a fairy; 20 % encounter rate for knob goblin and 25 % base drop turns into about 40 % with a monocle and fairy for an expectation value of 25 turns. This means 37 turns overall, and most importantly 25 very inefficient day 1 turns with a fairy to save 33-35 turns. Alternative is clovering for brain+skull after bonerdagon (day 3) to save me 20 crafts which still makes the lenses take more turns than the tender will save.

Therefore I am still contemplating inigo's. I'l be able to cast inigo's from day 2 on to save me 30 useless turns worth of crafting or a lot of turns farming a bartender. Sonata will save me turns by getting more non-combats (although the turns Sonata cuts are turns giving some stats and it competes with MM, MMM and phat loot for song slots). I am still really unsure whether it saves enough turns though as a lot of areas where I want NC's also require certain item drops that I tend to have to wait for (only straightforward zones where I need NC's and nothing else are airship (YRing a mech), bedroom and spooky forest) so I don't think Sonata on top of smooth movement is going to save me 30 and a few (combat stats compared to crafting and possibly need items after all required NC's) turns...

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lotsofphil » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:30 am

Perm Inigos and eat the chef turns. Sounds like a good plan to me.

How much Sonata will help is tough to figure out. Some places you want it have delay. The big one is Ballroom since you'll spend so many turns leveling and don't have olfaction.

I say just jump in and go fast. If you miss your 10-skill attempt, try again as 11 or 12 or whatever. The olfactionless target is 17 skills so you've got plenty of wiggle room.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by playultm8 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:33 pm

lotsofphil wrote: I say just jump in and go fast. If you miss your 10-skill attempt, try again as 11 or 12 or whatever. The olfactionless target is 17 skills so you've got plenty of wiggle room.
Sorry, lurking on the thread and wanted to quickly clarify this. Are you saying the earliest 4 day run without olfaction was done with 17 skills? That seems later than I would have expected.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Kelemvor » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:36 pm

My, this thread has moved fast.

I tried hipster sewerleveling this run (8 skills, HCO), and found that I was averaging 2 cuffs per kill, getting the jump and killing 10 monsters with just the pool buff. I was a TT, though, so was able to Toss for about 10 damage as my stasis skill; not sure if Sing will work as well. I think when you factor in the damage from Sing, you ought to be able to kill the monster a lot more quickly than needing 2 attacks from the hipster.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Kelemvor » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:39 pm

playultm8 wrote: Sorry, lurking on the thread and wanted to quickly clarify this. Are you saying the earliest 4 day run without olfaction was done with 17 skills? That seems later than I would have expected.
That's correct, and it was done by LotsOfPhil.

There are only 3 4-day runs with fewer skills: bmaher (16), Pantsless(13), and ddintnst(9). I'm just about positive they all had olfaction.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:52 pm

Kelemvor wrote:
playultm8 wrote: Sorry, lurking on the thread and wanted to quickly clarify this. Are you saying the earliest 4 day run without olfaction was done with 17 skills? That seems later than I would have expected.
That's correct, and it was done by LotsOfPhil.

There are only 3 4-day runs with fewer skills: bmaher (16), Pantsless(13), and ddintnst(9). I'm just about positive they all had olfaction.
I know ddintnst had olfaction and used FoB, pantsless had olfaction, dunno about bmaher but he did have a hobo monkey in most used so I wouldn't be surprised if he also picked up olfaction in aftercore.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lotsofphil » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:16 pm

Bmaher definitely had olfaction.

edit:
Sorry, lurking on the thread and wanted to quickly clarify this. Are you saying the earliest 4 day run without olfaction was done with 17 skills? That seems later than I would have expected.
Of the three people mentioned, 2 are softcore players. Only one person methodically set out to do a lowest-skill 4-day run. Most people perm skills when they ascend. That puts you out of low skill pretty quickly.

double edit: don't underestimate telescopes.

triple edit: Also, karma is pretty new. Look at snark's 4-day run. She had to do an HCO leadin. Lots of reasons why this hasn't been pushed. A little luck is needed. Would you really do an all out 4-day run, come up just shy and drop to casual/SC so you could do it again? Not many people would. If that's even possible, depending on leadin.
Last edited by lotsofphil on Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lostcalpolydude » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:17 pm

I had olfaction, a hound dog, and basically anything else that could be useful outside of a full skill set.
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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:42 pm

I don't really feel like chaining 7 casual sauce runs to gain my olfaction and scope though so I guess I'll just do it with the resources I have and have someone else doing it with 7 skills and all the nonperm stuff ;).

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Kelemvor » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:01 pm

lotsofphil wrote: Lots of reasons why this hasn't been pushed. A little luck is needed. Would you really do an all out 4-day run, come up just shy and drop to casual/SC so you could do it again? Not many people would. If that's even possible, depending on leadin.
I've done a few low-skill SC attempts in my day, and I have to say that I would never, ever drop to softcore or casual to avoid perming a skill to try again.

Part of the reason I hold low-skill runs in such high esteem (besides the fact that I do them, so kind of have to believe they're worth doing) is that you are not only missing skills, but 1) you're also missing a lot of practice and practical experience, and 2) you have a limited number of shots, possibly only one.

If someone were to drop to softcore or drop to casual when they failed, I wouldn't consider a subsequent success nearly as impressive, except if there were extenuating circumstances, like they started the run and then had an unexpected RL situation and couldn't play for three days, so came back and dropped. I think dropping hardcore or choosing not to perm a skill is against the spirit of doing low-skill runs. Same with low-skill multis.
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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lotsofphil » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:26 pm

I agree with you Kel. It certainly lessens the achievement in my eyes.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Whym » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:44 pm

Kelemvor wrote:Part of the reason I hold low-skill runs in such high esteem (besides the fact that I do them, so kind of have to believe they're worth doing) is that you are not only missing skills, but 1) you're also missing a lot of practice and practical experience, and 2) you have a limited number of shots, possibly only one.
I agree completely. Go go low-skill runs! It's a pity that I'm almost out of the low-skill zone. I really enjoy it. I've only got maybe two runs left that would count as "low-skill", which is probably why I'm slow-rolling them for speed attempts. But there's a huge difference between runs with 30 skills and runs with 10, or even 20.

I've been lurking in this thread, too, but phil, kel and whore_moans have ninja'd me on everything I would have said. :)

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:51 pm

And I think that that is also pretty clearly shown by softcore ascenders doing best on HCNP low skill, they are a lot more familiar with a lot of mechanics which I think is a big part of why they get those 4 dayers out easier (and the help of a scope and olfaction off course ;))

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Kelemvor » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:18 pm

I did a bunch more thinking about box servants.
Sambal wrote: Assuming I am lucky and get a hat the chef still requires ~6 turns for a box (50 % encounter rate, 20 % base drop rate, 20*(1+0.2+0.1+0.25)=~31 % modified drop rate), 2 clovers for a brain and a skull (alternative use is opening bat hole and getting boss bat done on day 1 so I have a lot of meat to work with) or a dozen turns farming brain if I only get 1 clover. Counting a clover as 3 turns that means it is 12 day 1 turns which are worth more than turns in general to save 9 over the course of the run.
Only 9 turns over the course of the run? I count 12 (4 hell ramen, 3 milk, GEO). I am assuming you're only making 1 hell ramen day 1, so if you push making the chef to day 2, it saves you 10 turns. Pushing to day 2 also allows you to clover the cemetary for brains and a skull, plus clover fun house for 2 boxes. That means it's 6 turns spent (2 clovers) to save 10 turns, which seems worthwhile, assuming you have enough clovers (might mean not being able to clover for sonars, though).
Sambal wrote: The bartender starts with those same 12 turns and after that the shittiest bit comes in. No olfaction makes me spend a lot of turns in a very low ML area with a fairy; 20 % encounter rate for knob goblin and 25 % base drop turns into about 40 % with a monocle and fairy for an expectation value of 25 turns. This means 37 turns overall, and most importantly 25 very inefficient day 1 turns with a fairy to save 33-35 turns. Alternative is clovering for brain+skull after bonerdagon (day 3) to save me 20 crafts which still makes the lenses take more turns than the tender will save.
25 turns for lens farming looks right, but again, if you push to day 2, you're only spending 3 turns (1 clover for brains/skull, and boxes are free since you already clovered for them). That's 28 turns, not including stats you get from the brawl, plus potentially base booze. The stats are pretty low there; let's call them 1/5 of a powerleveling turn. Then you save about 5 turns getting a tender, plus get base booze.

So, I think the decision between inigo's and sonata is not that clear-cut. If you had Inigo's, you'd get to use it on the day 1 SHC and maybe the hell ramen, so total you're saving about 27 turns (since you would farm a tender, which costs 28 turns but gives 5 turns of stats; 28 - 5 + 4 = 27), but keep in mind that you also have to get 100 max mp and generate 500 mp a day, which might not be trivial.

I have no idea how many turns sonata saves you. I have a feeling it's less than 27, but it's a heckuva lot easier to cast, and given our discussion about how low-skill runs are difficult because of lack of practice, combined with the number of people I've seen wondering how to manage casting inigo's, I'd probably opt for sonata. It's a tough choice for sure. FWIW, Pantsless is on record in GD saying he'd take Sonata over Inigo's, but that was before the tavern change.

In any case, I think it's pretty clear though that for people around 10 skills, if you don't have inigo's, you should make both a chef and a tender. If you do have inigo's, you should still make a chef, at least until your turncounts are low enough that you can make AC's and do all your crafting via inigo's. This is even more so if you have olfaction, since you can sniff the beer lens monster.

Whew, that was a lot of math.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lostcalpolydude » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:26 pm

Sambal wrote:And I think that that is also pretty clearly shown by softcore ascenders doing best on HCNP low skill, they are a lot more familiar with a lot of mechanics which I think is a big part of why they get those 4 dayers out easier (and the help of a scope and olfaction off course ;))
Yeah, low-skill HC almost feels like cheating after doing a whole bunch of SC.
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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:02 am

Kelemvor wrote:I did a bunch more thinking about box servants.
Sambal wrote: Assuming I am lucky and get a hat the chef still requires ~6 turns for a box (50 % encounter rate, 20 % base drop rate, 20*(1+0.2+0.1+0.25)=~31 % modified drop rate), 2 clovers for a brain and a skull (alternative use is opening bat hole and getting boss bat done on day 1 so I have a lot of meat to work with) or a dozen turns farming brain if I only get 1 clover. Counting a clover as 3 turns that means it is 12 day 1 turns which are worth more than turns in general to save 9 over the course of the run.
Only 9 turns over the course of the run? I count 12 (4 hell ramen, 3 milk, GEO). I am assuming you're only making 1 hell ramen day 1, so if you push making the chef to day 2, it saves you 10 turns. Pushing to day 2 also allows you to clover the cemetary for brains and a skull, plus clover fun house for 2 boxes. That means it's 6 turns spent (2 clovers) to save 10 turns, which seems worthwhile, assuming you have enough clovers (might mean not being able to clover for sonars, though).
Ah yeah, I forgot about the milk and the liberty to use sarcasm to gain access to the bedroom. Plan is two hell ramen on day 1 though, if I can't hit level 6 with <4 fullness I won't be able to hit day 1 liver anyways so day 1 needs to be 2 ramen. I previously ended up banking turns to do the cyrpt at day 3, and day 2 is the day I plan to eat my other ramens (badass pies and pumpkin pies for stat days). So we'd be talking about 8 turns for 2 clovers + 2 turns + 1 box which makes it more expensive than just cooking imho.
Kelemvor wrote:I did a bunch more thinking about box servants.
Sambal wrote: Assuming I am lucky and get a hat the chef still requires ~6 turns for a box (50 % encounter rate, 20 % base drop rate, 20*(1+0.2+0.1+0.25)=~31 % modified drop rate), 2 clovers for a brain and a skull (alternative use is opening bat hole and getting boss bat done on day 1 so I have a lot of meat to work with) or a dozen turns farming brain if I only get 1 clover. Counting a clover as 3 turns that means it is 12 day 1 turns which are worth more than turns in general to save 9 over the course of the run.
Only 9 turns over the course of the run? I count 12 (4 hell ramen, 3 milk, GEO). I am assuming you're only making 1 hell ramen day 1, so if you push making the chef to day 2, it saves you 10 turns. Pushing to day 2 also allows you to clover the cemetary for brains and a skull, plus clover fun house for 2 boxes. That means it's 6 turns spent (2 clovers) to save 10 turns, which seems worthwhile, assuming you have enough clovers (might mean not being able to clover for sonars, though).
Sambal wrote:I have no idea how many turns sonata saves you. I have a feeling it's less than 27, but it's a heckuva lot easier to cast, and given our discussion about how low-skill runs are difficult because of lack of practice, combined with the number of people I've seen wondering how to manage casting inigo's, I'd probably opt for sonata. It's a tough choice for sure. FWIW, Pantsless is on record in GD saying he'd take Sonata over Inigo's, but that was before the tavern change.
That is indeed pre tavern change, and tavern change for me meant going from 0-2 drunkness (hipster fights) for 2 lenses to 25 turns, the latter is really expensive...
Kelemvor wrote:I did a bunch more thinking about box servants.
Sambal wrote: Assuming I am lucky and get a hat the chef still requires ~6 turns for a box (50 % encounter rate, 20 % base drop rate, 20*(1+0.2+0.1+0.25)=~31 % modified drop rate), 2 clovers for a brain and a skull (alternative use is opening bat hole and getting boss bat done on day 1 so I have a lot of meat to work with) or a dozen turns farming brain if I only get 1 clover. Counting a clover as 3 turns that means it is 12 day 1 turns which are worth more than turns in general to save 9 over the course of the run.
Only 9 turns over the course of the run? I count 12 (4 hell ramen, 3 milk, GEO). I am assuming you're only making 1 hell ramen day 1, so if you push making the chef to day 2, it saves you 10 turns. Pushing to day 2 also allows you to clover the cemetary for brains and a skull, plus clover fun house for 2 boxes. That means it's 6 turns spent (2 clovers) to save 10 turns, which seems worthwhile, assuming you have enough clovers (might mean not being able to clover for sonars, though).
Sambal wrote:In any case, I think it's pretty clear though that for people around 10 skills, if you don't have inigo's, you should make both a chef and a tender. If you do have inigo's, you should still make a chef, at least until your turncounts are low enough that you can make AC's and do all your crafting via inigo's. This is even more so if you have olfaction, since you can sniff the beer lens monster.
Bartender is definitely a no-go really, 25 turns + 2 clovers + 2 turns is more than the 30 it saves for sure. But most importantly it makes me lean very very strongly to perming inigo's.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Kelemvor » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:14 am

I don't see why you think bartender is a "definite" no-go. 25 turns + 2 clovers + 2 turns = 33 turns, and you'll save about 5 turns in powerleveling plus get some base booze. 33 - 5 = 28, which is less than 30.

Your run, your call. I just don't think the math is so obviously in favor of not making the tender, unless I've made an erroneous assumption somewhere.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lotsofphil » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:52 am

I highly doubt you'll use a serum to get in the bedroom. Without a scope you will open the island/YR hippy quite late. No hippy, no olive, no serum.

As for pantsless and Inigo's/Sonata, the relevant point is that was pre-tavern change. I heard a lot of people complaining about lenses during DitR. My gut says Inigos.

Lastly, I also "highly doubt" you'll be casting Inigos on Day 1.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:05 am

Kelemvor wrote:I don't see why you think bartender is a "definite" no-go. 25 turns + 2 clovers + 2 turns = 33 turns, and you'll save about 5 turns in powerleveling plus get some base booze. 33 - 5 = 28, which is less than 30.

Your run, your call. I just don't think the math is so obviously in favor of not making the tender, unless I've made an erroneous assumption somewhere.
25 turns in the brawl with a fairy and MCD @ 10 is about 56 moxie, that is a lot less than 5 turns in powerleveling right? If I go sewerleveling (which is what I'd do on day 1 for extra stats) that is about 3 turns worth of sewering for me and will help aid me a lot in hitting 6 before running out of turns.

And indeed I don't assume day 1 inigo's, and I don't think I can suffer stat loss for a day 1 tender so I'd end up with 30 turns from the tender instead of 33.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by top1214 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:57 am

Sambal wrote:
Kelemvor wrote:I don't see why you think bartender is a "definite" no-go. 25 turns + 2 clovers + 2 turns = 33 turns, and you'll save about 5 turns in powerleveling plus get some base booze. 33 - 5 = 28, which is less than 30.

Your run, your call. I just don't think the math is so obviously in favor of not making the tender, unless I've made an erroneous assumption somewhere.
25 turns in the brawl with a fairy and MCD @ 10 is about 56 moxie, that is a lot less than 5 turns in powerleveling right? If I go sewerleveling (which is what I'd do on day 1 for extra stats) that is about 3 turns worth of sewering for me and will help aid me a lot in hitting 6 before running out of turns.

And indeed I don't assume day 1 inigo's, and I don't think I can suffer stat loss for a day 1 tender so I'd end up with 30 turns from the tender instead of 33.
Sonata (or rather going from +5NC to +10NC) saves 4 turns at the Friars. So if going for Day 1 liver or bust, Sonata saves turns over Inigo's there.

ETA:
Assuming no delay(), and that all NCs in the zone are equally likely (except the wand [so ignoring the queue]). Also assumes going from 10 to 15 NC (except for friars).

1.5 in the forest (although I guess this is just runaways)
4 at friars
0.5 in bedroom (4NCs, need 2 of them, and 3 total)
5 at airship (need 5, 2 total NCs)
6 at castle (need 2 4 total NCs)
2.5 in middle chamber
0.5 at poop deck
Probably negligible amount for Mr. Alarm
No idea if it affects 4 shelves (0.5 if it does)
1.67 for getting the wand
No freaking clue about Cyrpt
~1.2 getting the pirate outfit (assuming no pieces drop) (Need 3, half give some outfit)
2 turns at war start (need 1 NC, 3 NCs)

So at least 25 turns saved by sonata questing. It also adds say 3.5 mainstat/turn powerleveling. A powerleveling turn is somewhere around 70 mainstat say. So you save 1/20 powerleveling turns. On my 4 day attempt, I spent about 100 turns powerleveling, so that's another 5. So that's 30 turns saved, and that ignores other fringe benefits (Barrr stats/base booze, stats in palindome).

So there's your 30 turns. Sonata is also a whole lot easier to use, and less likely to screw it up.

EDIT 2: Added Cove, Bedroom, and War Start, so that shifted it to equal.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:45 pm

I'll think I perm sonata indeed with those numbers. However I am still not sure about the tender. I ran some simulations to see averages and SD's with que rejection, fairy fattening and the like implemented. Simulation results (with and without monocle):

Code: Select all

2            ! number of drops required
1000000      ! number of trials
0.25         ! base item drop rate
5            ! number of possible encounters
.true.       ! amphibian sympathy
20           ! + item from skills and gear
1            ! base fairy weight
10           ! rng seed
27.2 +/- 16.0 turns for 2 lenses

Code: Select all

2            ! number of drops required
1000000      ! number of trials
0.25         ! base item drop rate
5            ! number of possible encounters
.true.       ! amphibian sympathy
30           ! + item from skills and gear
1            ! base fairy weight
11           ! rng seed
25.5 +/- 14.9 turns for 2 lenses

The main problem for me here is the insane standard deviation which can cause a horrible day 1 screwup.

Edit, ran over the code and noticed I didn't put sympathy in, numbers changed now to reflect AS.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:49 pm

top1214 wrote:1.5 in the forest (although I guess this is just runaways)
4 at friars
0.5 in bedroom (4NCs, need 2 of them, and 3 total)
5 at airship (need 5, 2 total NCs)
6 at castle (need 2 4 total NCs)
2.5 in middle chamber
0.5 at poop deck
Probably negligible amount for Mr. Alarm
No idea if it affects 4 shelves (0.5 if it does)
1.67 for getting the wand
No freaking clue about Cyrpt
~1.2 getting the pirate outfit (assuming no pieces drop) (Need 3, half give some outfit)
2 turns at war start (need 1 NC, 3 NCs)

So at least 25 turns saved by sonata questing. It also adds say 3.5 mainstat/turn powerleveling. A powerleveling turn is somewhere around 70 mainstat say. So you save 1/20 powerleveling turns. On my 4 day attempt, I spent about 100 turns powerleveling, so that's another 5. So that's 30 turns saved, and that ignores other fringe benefits (Barrr stats/base booze, stats in palindome).

So there's your 30 turns. Sonata is also a whole lot easier to use, and less likely to screw it up.

EDIT 2: Added Cove, Bedroom, and War Start, so that shifted it to equal.
Runaways are "turns" too :) saving a couple fives me more in library/bedroom/mr. alarm etc.

And after your list I ran into a few more, billiards, library, ballroom (setting song), unlocking DoD if you didn't include that with wand yet,

And are oasis/desert all superlikely or affected by NC rate? And palindome are NC's as well, right? or superlikely?

And as I don't have ofaction a couple of turns in the pyramid as well.

So I'll definitely get sonata before inigo's, the big question now is to craft booze manually or grind lenses. If I don't take the tender the question becomes chef or not... It gives me something to do on day 1 and some basic booze. The price for this is:
- Unlock fern's ruins (~11 turns)
- Get brain/skull (1-2 clovers + 1-2 turns)
- Box (6 turns or 1 clover + 1 turn)
- A little bit of meat
Making it day 1 yields 12 crafting turns (and the freedom to use sauce potions where needed).
Making it day 2 yields 8 crafting turns (and the freedom to use sauce potions where needed).
If I get a tender as well remove 11 turns from cost as I'd unlock the place anyways.

I still have a really hard time justifying grinding lenses (losing loads of day 1 stats and swingy as an, ehm, swing)...

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by top1214 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:11 pm

Yeah, I forgot the Library (b/c it still always takes me like >8 turns), billiards, and >. I did include the pyramid (middle chamber).

The Oasis/Desert are unaffected by NC. I honestly don't know about any part of the Palindome, but I would guess not (but you run it anyway as moxie).

Maybe you don't as much anymore, but you used to need at least favorable RNG for the 4 dayer. !Pants got through Friars Part 1 in like 11 turns. It took me 33, and I was running 5% more NC. We also both went blender for the turngen, risking the Knoll. Nothing ventured....

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:15 pm

I'll run numbers on brawl again, and if it would enable day 1 liver still I might just do it indeed.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:02 pm

Hmmm... another option is getting 2 balloons and running a hatrack after:

Code: Select all

2            ! number of drops required
1000000      ! number of trials
0.25         ! base item drop rate
5            ! number of possible encounters
.true.       ! amphibian sympathy
30           ! + item from skills and gear
1            ! base hatrack weight
12           ! rng seed
21.3 +/- 11.7

2 balloons would be about 12 turns in the fun house, which is 6 more than expectation value of 1 box, or equal to expectation value of 2 boxes. And the hatrack going up to a 36 lbs fairy compared to using non-limited-per-day resources with slimeling or pixie means that the latter two need to hit 16 lbs to get buffed there...

Off course pixie and slimeling provide damage and mp/absinthes as well, but it is definitely worth considering to run a lot more hatrack. This would also put less pressure on my tome summons...

Another thing that could happen there is getting 4 clownosity so I could pick up a squeezebox.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lostcalpolydude » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:26 pm

Palindome is all superlikelies except for the stats you want as a moxie class.
bmaher: Softcore character
lostcalpolydude: Hardcore character (abandoned)

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:48 pm

There we go again for main stats if I get inaboxen:
- 6 combats in the outskirt @ 11.5 ML: 8.6
- 8.5 combats in the pantry @ 11 ML: 11.7
- 8 combats in the forest @ 13 ML: 13
- 7 combats in the cellar @ 20 ML: 17.5
- 21 combats in the brawl @ 18 ML: 47.25
- 12 combats in the fun house @ 29 ML: 43.5
- 10 combats in the cemetery @ 30 ML: 37.5
- 5 combats in the billiards @ 30 ML: 18.75
- 20 combats in the 8-bit realm @ 35 ML: 87.5
- 1 frozen swill: 40
- 2 roc feathers: 50

is about 370 moxie in about 110 combat turns

2 roc feathers, 1 agua, 3 swills, 2 pumpkin beer and some fillers is about 120-125 turns so I'd need to do less of this and more of powerleveling to get the remaining 400 substats as well... eye-balling it I can run nonfairies in about 80 of those combats, let's say this average 1.5 moxie per turn or another 120 which makes me 280 short...

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:50 am

Will move the box servant discussion forwards to day 2, as I'd either do it there or not at all.

Plan for day 1 now:
- Starting with 9 stats (9/0)
- HeBo in RQG for YR and RR. (15/4) +1
- Use 2 moxie weeds (25/0)
- Eat a fortune cookie. +1
- Eating snaps a hipster in RQG to keep those 30-40 ML fights going, no MCD so I won't be killed by hipster fights (120/13) +1
- If I didn't get another snaps I'll take out a fairy and get 1 more.
- Second one in RQG with hipster fights up to the 4th hipster fight (90/5)
- Remaining turns of snaps will be used in the spooky forest with a llama after which I'll get a mosquito (12.5/9)
- Birdform in the cellar with rogue program for two tokens, running -combat for base booze, finishing in 8-bit if needed (65/15)
- roc feather, blended frozen swill, 3 pumpkin beers (80/1) +42.5
- hipsterleveing in sewers (200/6), will add in vent rage gland here to help dealing some damage while singing and using my seal tooth.
- 575/49
- Kill von Rotsworth (5/1)
- 8-bit for a second birdform stint with stat/mp fams (100/15)
- Roc feather (25/0)
- Grab some distilled fortified wines (0/1)
- And drink em +18.5
- Bugbear for pantry and knob (100/15)
- 800/91
- finishing 8-bit with sandworm/BBB (100/15)
- Use agua +7.5
- Drink a SHC (0/2) +20
- Start grabbing some helion cubes, cooking 2 hell ramen (50/4) +50
- Friars quest (x/35)
- liver (x/31)
- Nightcap with another SHC (0/2) +20

Essentially the benchmark this way would be hitting level 6 with room for a SHC and 12 fullness open which seems well doable this way, I'll be able to do runaways, zap harem girl etc. when I hit liver, or to burn pencilnecked turns. Just noticed I forgot to mention turns for guild unlock and big rock, so add + 2 useless turns at the start...

Leftovers to round up on day 2 would then be:
- Servants if wanted (saving 8 and 30 turns for chef and bartender respectively)
- Bat hole (wil have 2-4 clovers so I should be able to spare one on this)
- Goblin king
- Billiards, Library (might throw some runaways at this on day 1 instead of spooky forest so I can focus on day 2 ballroom song).

~ 30 turns carry over to day 2.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:57 pm

And there we go for day 2, the two most important objectives for day 2 are unlocking the hippy store and banking 150-160 turns. In addition to that I'd like to finish up the bat hole and goblin king.

Diet will be:
- 2 hell ramen (assuming I get my hands on 4 hellion cubes total on day 1), 2 fortune cookies and 1 knob pastie for my stomach (58.5 turns).
- 5 supercocks, 1 knob coffee, 2 pumpkin beer (maybe 1 more coffee and 1 less beer but w/e) (120.5 turns)
- 1 agua, 1 roc feather, 1 coffee pixie stick (23 turns)

With about 70 turns to start the day with this gives me about 110-120 turns to work with while.

First decision to make here, do I use 110-120 or 150-some turns... Using 110-120 means I'll shore 5 turns (with some spacing) and fry a hippy. Using 150 turns I'd be able to YR twice and can get a KGE at the start of the day followed by a hippy at the end of the day.

Assuming I can pick my adventures cleverly (e.g. pirate noncombats, daily dungeon, backfarming for inaboxen or any other leftovers, crafting and possibly teleportitis) I should look at moving about say 750 ML worth of combats from day 3 to day 2, say 800 ML to keep it simpler, which is about 100 moxie, or a loss of 25 moxie to get day early access to the KGE. Getting KGE earlier should definitely cut more than 1/2 a powerleveling turn (if I don't do it here I need to do it somewhere during day 3 instead of all the cool other options like miner, bob racecar, booze giant, mech, last missing chasm scroll).

So I'll go about spending 150 turns.
- First getting the YR on cooldown by frying a KGE (1)
- Then shore the first time as moxie (3), possibly a second time if the meat allows it but I'll assume I'll do that after the next trip
- Clovering 2 sonars, jumping in the bean bat chamber for another one. Depending on clover situation and exact screambat mechanics (is it combat #8, or is it random with 8 turns in between of them?) I might clover another one as soon as I have my bean. (5)
- 4 turns with organ grinder in the bat hole and if I didn't see the boss bat yet I'll kill the goblin king first (5)
- expected is boss bat on turn 5 in the hole, so let me just assume it comes there, if not I'll swim in meat at least :) (1)
- next up is unlocking the ballroom before hitting the cyrpt, doing billiards with my organ grinder to finish my second pie and kill wraiths (8)
- Library with a fairy first to get my demon summoning items (9)
- Bedroom with banderways or maybe hipster/fingercuffs (10)
- Shoring as muscle, followed by 1 moxie (6)
- Ballroom with a fairy and some eyedrops to set the song (5)
- Cyrpt (40)
- Shoring as myst (3)

Hmm... I'd really like to shore again now as I'd love to start on the pirate cove... Maybe I can fit in shoring once on day 1 or just hope to either get the fence or not get a cow in the tower. As we are looking at it now it is a (3*[9/8]^2)^(-1)*3=0.79 turns lost at the tower, I'd say that screwing around doing other stuff now is not worth 0.79 turns so I'll shore again as moxie and get started on the pirate cove. Grand total thus far is about 100 turns.

So another 50 turns of stuff to do before frying my hippy.

- First one is the pirate cove, hunting the NC's for about 15 turns.
- Daily dungeon with some skeleton keys for about 6 turns.
- cooking for 4 turns.
- gazing into an empty agua bottle to set up cyrus for 6 turns, I still need to check whether amino acid counter is reset on rollover or not.
- Getting a + sign for like 5 turns.
- Starting on barrrneys for some base booze I guess... Depends a lot on RNG I guess, might have less than 15 turns left here.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by lotsofphil » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:24 pm

Will you have enough turns on Day 2 to not drink until turn 150?

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:28 pm

lotsofphil wrote:Will you have enough turns on Day 2 to not drink until turn 150?
I should be ok with 2 ramen, 2 cookies, 1 pastie, spleen, pumpkin beer and coffee if everything goes according to plan but I might indeed need to revisit this after my day 1 to make sure I do have enough turns to pull this off (enough cubes and carry over).

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:12 pm

Day 3 and 4 are all pretty straightforward, except for the level 9 quest, I am still not sure what to do there. semi-rare and YRing the pr0n or going in with fairy, go for stat script or not? I have the feeling that SR, YRIng pr0n and not getting stat script but instead powerleveling a bit is going to take me less turns than any other option I think but I am not 100 % sure on this.

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by playultm8 » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:21 pm

What would be your alternate targets for the Yellow Ray and Semi-rare, assuming you go go with the fairy in the chasm?

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:54 pm

playultm8 wrote:What would be your alternate targets for the Yellow Ray and Semi-rare, assuming you go go with the fairy in the chasm?
My current plan for SR's is:
- wine
- lunchbox
- ASCII
- lunchbox
- inhaler
- lunchbox

Not sure on the inhaler, but I think wines will add less turns than the inhaler saves (compared to a shc it is +1.5 adv/full * 3 and possibly 2 less turns crafting for 6.5 turns, hmm, maybe wine is better). So ascii art alternatives are eyedrops or wine, where wine seems to be the clear winner.

Ow and yellow rays:
- Snapdragon, Harem Girl
- KGE, Hippy
- Miner, Pr0n/Mech/Dancecard/Booze Giant, Drum Machine
- Bob Racecar, Mojo Filter, Tower Item

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Whym » Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:35 pm

Sambal wrote: Ow and yellow rays:
- Snapdragon, Harem Girl
- KGE, Hippy
- Miner, Pr0n/Mech/Dancecard/Booze Giant, Drum Machine
- Bob Racecar, Mojo Filter, Tower Item
war outfit?

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Re: 10 skill 4 day HCNP, is it doable?

Post by Sambal » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:05 pm

I don't have any + combat, that means I'd expect to spend 50 turns on the beach (+ a few for the song). So the fastest way to do it is as a hippy doing dooks, orchard, nuns, arena, junkyard. This means I'll use non-combats to get the war hippy outfit.

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