Lategame gong usage

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Sambal
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Lategame gong usage

Post by Sambal » Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:39 am

As requested by Serra my numbers on this, some assumptions:
- Hardcore, unless it helps pushing something to a 100 % drop which it wouldn't be without it is worse in softcore anyways I think although I am not sure.
- No pickpocketing, this is the bestcase scenario for the raven feather.
- Usage at the moment you hit level 12 (to have some values for stat gains in powerleveling areas so roach can be converted to turns).
- Not too much luck with item drops (e.g. no meat demon, BHH food, inhaler or opera glasses)
- For now disregarding stat gains from cut turns.
- Assuming normal combats only for gong, no hipster/bricko's.

Turns saved per gong:
Raven feather @ filthworms
- MLS, Phat Loot, Gnome, Hodg, Miner's Helmet, clan buff, 30 lbs hound dog, polka pop, stickers, KG drops, pumpkin juice for 305 % + item, or a 40.5% drop rate on the glands.
- With Raven feather this turns into 365 % + item, or a 46.5 % drop rate
I can run simulations later if anyone wants me to but for convenience sake I am going to assume you won't go 10 turns without a drop so you'll end up with the following:
- Delta(<Turns>) = 3 / 0.405 - 3 / 0.465 = 0.95

Buzzard feather @ nuns
- Nimble fingers, Expert panhandling, Gnefarious pickpocketing, Thrift and grift, Polka, Pops, Hatter, Arena, Knob spray, Stickers, 30 lbs hobo monkey for 700 % + meat, or an expectation value of 8,000 meat per combat.
- With Buzzard feather this turns into 760 % or 8,600 meat per combat.
Numbers here yield:
- Delta(<Turns>) = 100,000 / 8,000 - 100,000 / 8,600 = 0.87 turns

Raven feather @ rats
- Olfaction makes this a bit more complicated due to que rejection etc. and I should sim this instead but to get an idea I'll scribble down some numbers assuming 66.67 % rats (this is not rejecting any combats, making the scenario favorable for the feather).
- Same item drops rates as filthworms.
Numbers here then would be:
- Delta(<Turns>) = 11 / (.67*.81) - 11 / (.67*.93) = 2.61

Roachforming
- 125 mainstat to hit level 12
- 30 ML for 20 * 30 / 8 = 75 mainstat
For a total of:
- 2 * 125 + 75 = 325 mainstat
- Used the calculator to find out stat gains powerleveling, wow, that is a lot more than I thought it would be! comparing it to my lowskill stats/turn there. ~ 90 main stat per adventure.
Now to see how many turns that saves in the proces of getting 325 mainstat:
- Delta(<Turns>) = 325 / 90 - 3 = 0.6 turns worth of powerleveling

So I have to change what I said in /clan at first, low skill it saves a lot of powerleveling turns compared to about 50-60 main stat/turn but higher skill that gets a lot better. Nuns loses to gong if you get an inhaler, especially if you also get the demon, but a feather for filthworms and some rats is definitely going to cut more turns than a gong, I didn't do rats either without olfaction which makes the numbers for + item worth less as well.

Orchard takes about 6.5 turns of the effect to save .95 turns, rats with excessively counting nonrat encounters saves the 2.61 turns in 17.6 turns, most likely you can do both in one feather if you calculate olfaction right or popper an encounter but orchard is a slightly better place to use the feather effect than the rats, so do orchard first, then rats.

If you want any specific numbers for your personal scenario let me know, but I think that a rule of thumb for people progressing in hardcore normally (no 5 perms + olfaction as that requires some rerunning of numbers) would be:
1) get a raven feather if you have olfaction
2) get a buzzard feather if you don't get an inhaler (consumable SR's)
3) roachform with all remaining gongs (and off course some roc feathers on day 1)

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Fred Nefler
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Re: Lategame gong usage

Post by Fred Nefler » Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:25 am

It should be pointed out that a buzzard feather is not an easy thing to get. You need the stench element bug drops, and assuming you YR for the filthy hippy disguise, this basically leaves a window of one, MAYBE two gongs to collect both the bugs and the feather in. One is on the battlefield itself; second is mostly if you do some or all of filthworms in bird form, which would prevent you from flyering (but at least give you pickpocket). I have failed to get a buzzard feather before because I could not get the 5 stinkbugs in time. And you also have to be able to fight those 15 turns in birdform on the battlefield without using so many talon slashes that you end up with the roc feather, instead. Which can require significant amounts of potion buffing, which tends to mean that you need to pre-buy fruit from the hippy stand before you start the war so you have what you need. As well as have spare reagents AND inigo's or a chef, unless you can find a way to get by with only non-reagent potion buffs.

Also don't forget the feathers consume a point of spleen. I've also failed to make use of my buzzard feather because I forgot to save a point of spleen.

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sham
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Re: Lategame gong usage

Post by sham » Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:39 am

Fred Nefler wrote: And you also have to be able to fight those 15 turns in birdform on the battlefield without using so many talon slashes that you end up with the roc feather, instead.
the last cast is what makes the difference. if your last cast is talon slash (and you have more than 15), you'll get roc feather; if it's whatever it's called to get the other feather, you'll get the other feather even if you have already cast 15 (or more) talon slashes.

I hope that makes sense :(

Omri
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Re: Lategame gong usage

Post by Omri » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:03 am

sham wrote:
Fred Nefler wrote: And you also have to be able to fight those 15 turns in birdform on the battlefield without using so many talon slashes that you end up with the roc feather, instead.
the last cast is what makes the difference. if your last cast is talon slash (and you have more than 15), you'll get roc feather; if it's whatever it's called to get the other feather, you'll get the other feather even if you have already cast 15 (or more) talon slashes.

I hope that makes sense :(
That's not actually true. I forget exactly what it is (if it even is known), but it's been disproven that the last cast is what matters.

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quamper
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Re: Lategame gong usage

Post by quamper » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:49 am


Draco Cracona
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Re: Lategame gong usage

Post by Draco Cracona » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:50 am

Omri wrote:
sham wrote:
Fred Nefler wrote: And you also have to be able to fight those 15 turns in birdform on the battlefield without using so many talon slashes that you end up with the roc feather, instead.
the last cast is what makes the difference. if your last cast is talon slash (and you have more than 15), you'll get roc feather; if it's whatever it's called to get the other feather, you'll get the other feather even if you have already cast 15 (or more) talon slashes.

I hope that makes sense :(
That's not actually true. I forget exactly what it is (if it even is known), but it's been disproven that the last cast is what matters.
I'm pretty sure it was proven to be random, weighted by the number of casts used of each.

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Serra725
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Re: Lategame gong usage

Post by Serra725 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:45 pm

Thank you, Sambal! It was nice seeing all the details laid out. I should be able to plug my own buffs in to customize it from there.

And, darn! I was thrilled to think that raven feather wasn't worth getting. I guess I will be trying that again next time, but leaving spleen for it! :)

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playultm8
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Re: Lategame gong usage

Post by playultm8 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:35 pm

Thanks for doing the initial number crunching, Sambal! The math looks good to me, and it should be pretty easy to reproduce for any class/level/skillset via the same method and some info from the power leveling site (http://www.houeland.com/kol/powerlevel). I'm assuming you used power leveling numbers for a moxie class?

I'll have to take a look at the best course of action with my current set of skills. I'm working on putting together a sort of leveling "map" to help track when/where I need to powerlevel based on running no ML, then adjust as my skills and ML ability improves. Once I add a Llama to my bag of tricks, this should be a useful exercise to help utilize gongs.

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lotsofphil
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Re: Lategame gong usage

Post by lotsofphil » Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:44 pm

quamper wrote:phil did some spading on it

http://kolspading.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=130
Haha: "It's really tedious. I'll do more if coaxed." I am such a good spader :-P

FufuBunnySlayer
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Re: Lategame gong usage

Post by FufuBunnySlayer » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:57 am

Wow, I didn't realize how much muscle got shafted on the powerleveling scene.
I piggybacked your work >.> and compared gong->items to raven feather for moxie and muscle classes.
Expectedly, it loses for mox. (It will also lose for myst classes, because of the single stat bonus choice.) However, it's better than a raven feather for muscle classes.
Even with a scarf and serpent sword/shield, gong->items saves ~2.23 at rats and 0.66 turns of powerleveling. Only a mite different, really. Yet if you have neither a scarf nor a serpent sword/shield, gong->items saves 0.91 turns of powerleveling. Combined with rats that bumps it over three full turns, about half a turn better than a raven feather.
Adjusted for olfaction: 2.83 (1.92 rats + 0.91 powerleveling) turns for gong->items, 2.26 turns for raven feather.
Gong->items also doesn't cost any spleen, so tack on another turn earned and some stats from a wad.
No fiddling around with Birdform as muscle. Yay!
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