Budgetcore musings

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lotsofphil
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Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:56 pm

I am thinking about budgetcore and figure Kelemvor has done most of the talking:
Why budgetcore?

I've always been interested in budgetcore, for a couple of reasons. 1, when I first started ascending, I pretty much had no meat (I still remember thinking that 32k was an exorbitant sum to pay for a sword behind inappropriate prepositions), and so had difficulty applying advice from the existing guides; 2, I think there's a widely held misconception that in order to go moderately fast (which I'll define as a 3-day run, since there are a few folks on GD trying to hit that milestone as a goal) you need to either have millions upon millions of meat tied up in iotms, or piles of skills and full brimstone.
His post (viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3570) and older ones by Brulak (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1035) and Alrik (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1408) go over most of the salient points. I am hoping to bring things up to date and try out different strategies.

I'll define budgetcore the same way as Kel. As this is for discussion purposes, don't feel restrained. If you want to do a full brimstone run or just a stainless scarf in place of a second carnivore, go for it. If you are the proud owner of a rogue program then you don't *have* to leave it out. Just try and stick to the spirit of the idea. "Define your terms and run with it," says snark.
- No Mr. Store items of any kind, including familiars.
- No familiars whose cost is over 100k in the mall, even if a player could have gotten one for free from an in-game event (because a player who missed the event wouldn't have it, and a budget-minded player would have sold it).
- No hardcore ascension rewards (the point is to prove they're not necessary).
- No consumables (defined as anything that is used up) costing over 50k.
- Total budget around 500k, with each item valued at its mall cost.
- The value of an untradeable item is calculated as 0, unless there is some obvious cost associated with obtaining it; the opportunity cost of adventures does not count. For example, I would count the Legendary Beat as costing 9k, since that's the price of the antique record album; the adventures required to get it do not count. If I also pulled tiny fly glasses, it would count as 0. It's a little complicated, but I think the spirit of budgetcore should be clear.
- No slimeling, as a budget player would still have to spend about 2m to acquire one (either in /trade, or the combined cost of nodules and buffs).
- Bounty hunter rewards are ok. Yes, I know olfaction and a hound dog isn't exactly something that everyone has, but everyone SHOULD be working towards it (I started lucre-farming well before I was interested in speed, for example). Anyway, on this run olfaction saved me something like 30 turns. A lot, sure, but if I'd planned and played better, I could easily have added 30 turns and still made daycount. Hound saved me quite a lot too, but I think I could have gotten away without that as well by changing up my plan.
Kel identifies 4 areas of need: -combat, stats, items and MP

-combat: pull ring of conflict, perm Sonata, perm Smooth Movements. Woo, budgetcore!

Stats: crimbo offhand, scarf, carnivore. No juju means you'll be able to equip 2 ML accessories a lot. And clovers. Lots and lots of clovers. The crimbo offhand means you need to rethink combat. The loss of a pilgrim shield might have done that anyways. (If you want to shieldbutt the best looks like dyspepsi). Spells would work but, unless you're a Sauceror that only exacerbates the MP problem. I've heard mention of clobber, but don't know how that would work.

Items: No Jrs or Jeks. No stickers. No grampa buffs. So familiars (including the jack) are more important. And eyedrops. Of course you can pull raven feathers/eyedrops. Legendary beat (+50%, once a day) is interesting too. The increased emphasis on familiars makes me like pulling a hookah.

MP: Two main issues: one is fuelling your combat suite and the other is fuelling buffs. Antiphon seems very pricey in a non-Crown-of-Thrones regime, for instance. Curiosity and Empathy are nice, but do you pull a Mace of the Tortoise, not cast them or just eat the high cost? Kel pulled 3 dictionaries. I'd hope for a more elegant solution. Increased starfishing might help here. For myst classes a chefstaff might be a good pull. Or a paperclip cape (which is untradeable).

So I need to figure out combat suite (synergy as sauceror, unknown otherwise) and where to get MP. Everything else seems pretty in-hand. I think a reasonable goal is 3-days. I think the turncount can be cut a lot from Kel's run, so I'd look for sub 3/650.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:57 pm

I'm going to try a TT run on Apr 3-5. Pulls and other thoughts to follow!

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by slaphappy snark » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:57 pm

In terms of defining terms to run with, I think that I somewhat prefer the definitions that allow for a bit more meat to be spent on non-consumable items and are stricter about consumables, rather than lumping them together. Stuff that gets used up is what the budget dude really needs to worry about, so 40k spent on a carnivore is not the same as 40k spent on 8 hi meins.

Anyway, no matter how you do it or how strict you are with it, this is a really cool thing to get moving on again, yay phil.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by top1214 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:09 pm

For my extremely lazy SC runs, I go dreadlock whip, crimboff, and for combat i cast noodles and I sling a miniborg. 25 damage/round (against unaligned...worse for friars, better for cyrpt) w/some delevel. A little worse than a toy mercenary, I guess. I don't know if I'd pull 2 w/funk, but I would think it would save a dictionary+ of meat that would go for spellslinging.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:59 pm

Great point snark. For this thread I want lots of unrestricted ideas. I'll have to lock things down a little for the contest (I think?).

WM, I might try funkslinging mercs. I'll be a TT so by the time they wash out I could just make a shield and kill things brute force if things fall apart.

Tentative turngen is 598.5. That is 3 pies a day, corpse drink nightcaps, 3 karma (discarded) with no other spleen. Pull 3 more on D3 if you need it for daycount.
In my mind karma is fine. This is a budget speed attempt, not a budget skill perming attempt.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by top1214 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:24 pm

By the time the damage/round would get annoying, I had pulled and equipped brim beret and shorts...+100% moxie made the rest of the run laughable.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Antipasta » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:14 am

I love the idea of budgetcore, but it's hard to define what budgetcore should be.

When I did some runs, I was trying to answer folks who were perma-HC and told me that softcore was only for the rich. So I restricted myself to the things that an HC player would likely have (including Mr Skills and Mr Familiars) but ruled out expensive consumables and fancy pullable gear like the Vivala mask. And then I could point to the run, and say to the HC folks: look, you can do softcore, you've already got everything you need, it won't bankrupt you!

I'm not sure who the target audience for no-Mr. Store-budgetcore is. If you don't have any of that stuff, and aren't spending anything on consumables, you presumably are doing budgetcore already, right?

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:43 am

What I really want are a bunch of logs that say "BUDGETCORE LotsOfPhil 3/740 SCNP TT", "BUDGETCORE AntiPasta 3/741 SCNP TT" in the forums. Each log can define/tweak the idea as they see fit.

The "softcore is for the rich" mentality is why I went into hardcore (and, I think, why so many more people play HC competitively).

I'm not sure I follow your last question about who the target is. I like the idea of showing that a "very good" run can be done with just work as the input (perms, BHH, scope, ascension rewards). The aspiring speedster with absolutely nothing may be just an abstract ideal, but it is a useful template. If I do 3/595 with nothing, then you should be able to do it with your "nothing + rogue program + VIP key" version.

I'm hoping that the contest that goes along with this will bring in actual budgetcore people to better inform our theoretical/self-imposed ideas.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by bennieloohoo » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:34 pm

lotsofphil wrote:BUDGETCORE LotsOfPhil 3/740 SCNP TT", "BUDGETCORE AntiPasta 3/741 SCNP TT"
Hahahahaha. Nicely done Phil. Also I really like the idea; having a standardized "budgetcore" terminology would be really nice.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:16 pm

After a month of looking up at AP when I set out to crush Punicron (to say nothing of AP's 100% HC mimic runs) I need to win somewhere.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Suendenbock » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:37 pm

I kinda wanna try this when i get out of my Oxy run, sort of to test myself and see how much I rely on my crutches to get me my MP and my damage.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Suendenbock » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:12 pm

Another thing that I thought would be interesting is if we could compile what most of the HC ascenders have access to via checking their terrarium and their skills. That way it would be cool to see what % of the people have access to the Bandersnatch for example. This could also be done through a survey to check out what Mr. Items people have. I just figure this would be interesting to do to define "budgetcore" in terms of what people have, instead of just guessing we would have numbers to back it up.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:52 pm

Suendenbock wrote:I just figure this would be interesting to do to define "budgetcore" in terms of what people have, instead of just guessing we would have numbers to back it up.
I'm hoping to get a feel for this with the people who enter the contest. What you suggest would be very neat but I don't know how you'd get the data

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Suendenbock » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:30 pm

Well, I figure public survey or just copy paste the skills and familiars that people have and have a program go from there? or is that too hard? I usually leave the data collecting and evaluating to other people =P

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:44 am

Day 1 of TT budgetcore done.

Took 70 turns to hit L6.
Had to pull a roc feather to have turns to hit L5 (first planned consumption was corpsedrink)
Got beaten up a few times. The first time I cheated and used the hottub (!!)
Slow leveling. I did the bat hole and the tavern. I usually leave both until later.
Had to use telescope to get in the library. Not a big deal since there was no way I was getting in the bedroom.
Couldn't do any damage. Cannon was weak and geyser was expensive. This would be better as a myst class (can't wait to equip scarf).
Accidentally/mistakenly pulled a second CARNIVORE. Plan was one carny and one scarf.
My telescope is pretty good.
Banked 169 into stat day.

I'll do proper log in a bit.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Suendenbock » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:47 am

Go Phil!

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:30 pm

To my great shame, I pulled the plug on my run. Zero turns played on D2.

If I did it again I would put more thought into the combat suite. Clobber might be viable, but I don't have it. I'd go with a dyspepsi shield on turn 0 and just run wereseal all the time, I think. Out muscle everything so combat is 0 or 3 MP. Pile on Rage, Snarl, Claws, etc.

edit: As sauce I'd definitely go with synergy and pull a scarf. As PM, not as sure, since it might be a little to MP-negative.

As moxie? probably the way to go would be outmoxie things, but how to do that? brimstone, sure. If not brimstone...? Suspenders?

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by transplanted_entwife » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:43 pm

awww... oh well, Phil. Such is life. Well, not if you pull the plug on it but you get my drift. Gee, I suck at consolation today. =(
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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Suendenbock » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:41 pm

I wanna try this, I was thinking about trying out 3 day Myst with the Sauce Synergy, but I might be missing one of the saucespheres. And as muscle I have most of the skills except powerballad, so I should be fine until I hit 30 muscle to equip the Bludgeon and the Bunker.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:58 am

Suendenbock wrote:I wanna try this, I was thinking about trying out 3 day Myst with the Sauce Synergy, but I might be missing one of the saucespheres. And as muscle I have most of the skills except powerballad, so I should be fine until I hit 30 muscle to equip the Bludgeon and the Bunker.
I think that is a good idea. It will be slow leveling to 30 muscle. Took me 70 turns to hit L6. I am quite tempted to pull a ration food/booze. Expensive consumable but it would help in a big way. Not sure how pricey they are post-Uncle Hobo.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Suendenbock » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:31 am

I was thinking maybe the pulling roc feathers or phoenix feather to speed up the process to 30 muscle. My main focus how to do a 3 dayers without much cost and the expensive items and skills while not so much focusing on how to do a 2-dayer. I will leave that to someone else

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Num deleted » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:40 pm

Actual rations took a nose dive after Crimbo, last I looked they were like 60% of the price the other ration was. Which rather confused me given the buff duration.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:42 pm

Individual rations food/booze are 35-40k. Not outrageous but pushing things.

Phoenix feathers are 2k :)

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Suendenbock » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:33 pm

Perfect, man this is going to be hard. I think I am going to start a test run today. Which is going to be hard =P

-edit- I knew it was going to be hard. but its even harder, I think I was on the right track with phoenix feathers, red queens garden food and pumpkin beer but rollover cut me off =/

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:30 am

Suendenbock wrote:-edit- I knew it was going to be hard. but its even harder, I think I was on the right track with phoenix feathers, red queens garden food and pumpkin beer but rollover cut me off =/
Oh man, even though I only played one day that quote *perfectly* summarizes things :)

Good luck with the rest of it.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Snaelda » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:22 am

Im in the middle of a budgetcore practice run. Took me 84 turns to get to lvl 6 and that's WITH a pulled peppermint schapps. My original plan was clearly not going to work just after a few turns (got beaten up on turn 2 yay! with 20 ML) so I changed strategy pretty much immediately and then was short on pulls and everything was going rather wrong. Should start day 2 with 182 turns. We'll see how it goes. I'm not planning on using karma so I think it'll end up a 4 dayer.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by bennieloohoo » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:47 am

I'm intending to try a myst run (PM, for rigatoni perming), maybe over the next myst day. No scarf lead-in, but maybe I'll pull one day 2. Not sure if I want to eat through 6 karma to finish in 3 days or not. Hopefully I won't need that many. I'm going to try toy mercs as a combat strategy, and move early leveling along by pulling 3 roc feathers and 3 alveoli (plus 2 schnapps). Also a carny or two (as I think about it now, I shouldn't pull two carnies day 1 and then a scarf day 2). Maybe dreadlock whip. Clockwork pirate skull, MoM, pumpkin bombs, RnR legend, stuff like that I think should definitely turn out well. A Crimboff eats up so much of the budget :/ I'd rather pull a ton of peppermint schnapps, I think. Not that much worse turngen-wise than ACs anyway. Corpse drinks for nightcaps, except probably a swill nightcap day 1. Thoughts? I may wish I'd permed the slimy +init skill when I'm running slimebreath and basically hoping to get the jump on stuff for noodles + toy mercing.

The thing I'm most worried about is familiars. WTF am I going to use!? Straight up volleyball for stats? Elemental gravy fairy for items? Muhhhhhh.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by top1214 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:20 am

bennieloohoo wrote:I'm intending to try a myst run (PM, for rigatoni perming), maybe over the next myst day. No scarf lead-in, but maybe I'll pull one day 2. Not sure if I want to eat through 6 karma to finish in 3 days or not. Hopefully I won't need that many. I'm going to try toy mercs as a combat strategy, and move early leveling along by pulling 3 roc feathers and 3 alveoli (plus 2 schnapps). Also a carny or two (as I think about it now, I shouldn't pull two carnies day 1 and then a scarf day 2). Maybe dreadlock whip. Clockwork pirate skull, MoM, pumpkin bombs, RnR legend, stuff like that I think should definitely turn out well. A Crimboff eats up so much of the budget :/ I'd rather pull a ton of peppermint schnapps, I think. Not that much worse turngen-wise than ACs anyway. Corpse drinks for nightcaps, except probably a swill nightcap day 1. Thoughts? I may wish I'd permed the slimy +init skill when I'm running slimebreath and basically hoping to get the jump on stuff for noodles + toy mercing.

The thing I'm most worried about is familiars. WTF am I going to use!? Straight up volleyball for stats? Elemental gravy fairy for items? Muhhhhhh.
No reason not to pull a dreadlock whip and crimboff if using toy mercs as your combat strategy. Crimboff also gets you to level 2 at turn 0.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Snaelda » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:53 am

Depends on how hardcore a budgetcore it is, the crimboff might be too expensive

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:59 am

Snaelda wrote:Depends on how hardcore a budgetcore it is, the crimboff might be too expensive
That gets back to the discussion about separate budgets for gear and consumables. Borrowing a crimboff or a carny is a lot easier than getting someone to give you 300k (or whatever jacks cost) for consumables. At the far end of this spectrum is Pantsless' borrowcore run with Eran: unlimited gear budget (provided it is tradeable), negligible consumables budget.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by bennieloohoo » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:59 pm

Oh dang, well for my myst run I'll DEFINITELY pull a crimboff. That one's cheap as balls. The set of jacks is more than 6x as expensive, and that's what I was looking at before.

Sucky things about dreadlock whip: (1) +10 ML is decent, but not spectacular, and (2) you can craft a hippo whip for free whenever you finish mining and goatlet, so probably start of day 3, possibly day 2 if you want to spend a couple of turns mining to get milk without pulling it, depends on how your mine goes, I guess. The +10 ML would be nice for early stats though, so I'm ambivalent. If clobber or shieldbutt were my combat strategy, I'd get to use the +elemental damage from the dreadlock whip, but with toy mercs it doesn't matter. I could be wrong, but I'm not super convinced on the dreadlock whip. If I have a spare pull on day 1, then I'll pull it, but otherwise I'll probably go without it and see how it goes. It's totally possible I'll be lacking for early stats and wishing I'd pulled the thing.

PS. You can't pull an 8-bit mag, right?

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by top1214 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:27 pm

I didn;t realize prices have basically doubled since kel's run...300k is only 60% of your budget >.<

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:40 pm

bennieloohoo wrote:PS. You can't pull an 8-bit mag, right?
Ugh. I dunno. Thinking back to proto-Phil, I couldn't have afforded one. Convincing arguments either way?

Thankfully no one has asked this in G-D yet.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by bennieloohoo » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:51 pm

lotsofphil wrote:
Ugh. I dunno. Thinking back to proto-Phil, I couldn't have afforded one. Convincing arguments either way?

Thankfully no one has asked this in G-D yet.
Somewhere in Oregon, Darth's feeling called to G-D...

But, to be serious, I don't really care. The pixel orb thing was argued in Dantose's thread I think; some people complained that the things took ages to sell, IIRC. I've been stockpiling mine so I don't really know much about that. 200k up front is kind of a lot, but then again the limit for the contest is 500k... your call, really.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by stupac2 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:13 pm

lotsofphil wrote:Ugh. I dunno. Thinking back to proto-Phil, I couldn't have afforded one. Convincing arguments either way?

Thankfully no one has asked this in G-D yet.
Do they still net meat? If so you should use one per run anyway, if you care about budget.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:44 pm

Now that's a compelling argument. You should pull it for farming reasons.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by top1214 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:01 am

So for HC, I was wondering if getting blue-suede shes was worth it. I got the eye-pod in my last BM run, and it was pretty cool. W/MLS, PoO, and Loot, I think not, but maybe if you only had one of those?

But then Moxie wouldn't like it very much, and there's still the airship and and Castle. W/a sleazy gravy fairy as your main fairy, it seems like a really good idea (it's only 1 combat in back alley, right?).

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by bennieloohoo » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:51 pm

top1214 wrote:W/a sleazy gravy fairy as your main fairy, it seems like a really good idea (it's only 1 combat in back alley, right?).
I'm planning to do this for my SC run. Though I don't have a hound yet.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by top1214 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:12 pm

bennieloohoo wrote:
top1214 wrote:W/a sleazy gravy fairy as your main fairy, it seems like a really good idea (it's only 1 combat in back alley, right?).
I'm planning to do this for my SC run. Though I don't have a hound yet.
I was thinking in non-moxie runs, the only places that want NC and item are airship, castle, and DoD. Oh, I guess Pirates (pre-cove), and to get miner's outfit. Library.

Places where you want C and item are F'c'le, Whitey's, and black forest. Is that it? Hidden city if you need a tower item. Palindome as non-moxie.

Maybe hound is only situationally worth it. I don't think equip is. W/3 weight skills, it's worth ~10% and ~1% C. So probably Hound where appropriate, but grab sleazy fairy item and run that where you want NC.

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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Snaelda » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:15 am

I finished a moxie budgetcore run yesterday 3/707 I'll put up a log once I get back home from work.

I used no karma at all but pulled 2 enchanted leopard-print barbells. I'll put a full cost breakdown and consumables vs. gear cost split as well for more info, I'm not sure if I stayed under 500k in total I wasn't looking at cost spreadsheets towards the end.

Main observation. It took ages to play. With combat lasting on average 5-8 rounds the RL time sink is huge. I ran out of time on day 2 and ended up having to play almost 400 turns on day 3 and that took 7 hours give or take. So I doubt I'll do another budgetcore run soon, Id probably be faster next time around but that's a lot of RL time on a work day.

Sambal
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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Sambal » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:15 am

top1214 wrote:
bennieloohoo wrote:
top1214 wrote:W/a sleazy gravy fairy as your main fairy, it seems like a really good idea (it's only 1 combat in back alley, right?).
I'm planning to do this for my SC run. Though I don't have a hound yet.
I was thinking in non-moxie runs, the only places that want NC and item are airship, castle, and DoD. Oh, I guess Pirates (pre-cove), and to get miner's outfit. Library.

Places where you want C and item are F'c'le, Whitey's, and black forest. Is that it? Hidden city if you need a tower item. Palindome as non-moxie.

Maybe hound is only situationally worth it. I don't think equip is. W/3 weight skills, it's worth ~10% and ~1% C. So probably Hound where appropriate, but grab sleazy fairy item and run that where you want NC.
Some additional options for a hound here:
- Library for the first 5 turns you'll want the hound
- If you are getting a zap wand I assume you'll farm !-potions? If so you'll want to use + combat after getting your wand
- On pirates you'd have to run some numbers (or I if I ain't too lazy), wondering how many turns a fairy cuts here as it is a low drop rate and you need the three different pieces from different encounters. Might even be able to run a stat fam here.
- Castle after setting the wheel you want +combat.
- Black forest depends on whether you have a drum or not, I tend to run -combat if I didn't get a drum yet.
- Hidden city you'd have to run some numbers as well, the noncombats are 20/3 or about 6.67 mainstat. A combat encounter is about 150 ML on average or 18.75 + ML/8 + Stat mainstat. 5 % + combat is therefore about 0.6 mainstat + a bit more depending on ML and bonus stats. Never mind I guess :)

bennieloohoo
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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by bennieloohoo » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:42 am

Screw the gravy fairy equipment thing, I think I'm just gonna pull a hookah.

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lotsofphil
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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:04 am

bennieloohoo wrote:Screw the gravy fairy equipment thing, I think I'm just gonna pull a hookah.
The hookah buffs were very welcome when I was using it.

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Snaelda
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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Snaelda » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:28 am

Same here, the hookah buffs were awsome and helped me out significantly a few times and also helps with the NS familiars at the end of the run

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lotsofphil
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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lotsofphil » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:49 am

Pet-buffing spray, leash, sympathy, empathy... did you skip KGE?

edit: nevermind. "in general" people might not have all those perms.

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Snaelda
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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by Snaelda » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:41 pm

Pet buffing spray lowets your stats by -10% if you have no sgeea and are marginal in hitting safe moxie for the sorceress not having to do that helps out a tiny bit. It's basically so marginal it doesnt really count but is still a little bit of a bonus but yes I was more thinking not everyone might have all the perms.

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top1214
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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by top1214 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:07 pm

I was thinking specifically HC. Still not sure what I want to do fairywise. Hopefully I'll need a spiderweb (and know about it).

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lostcalpolydude
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Re: Budgetcore musings

Post by lostcalpolydude » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:59 pm

Snaelda wrote:Pet buffing spray lowets your stats by -10% if you have no sgeea and are marginal in hitting safe moxie for the sorceress not having to do that helps out a tiny bit. It's basically so marginal it doesnt really count but is still a little bit of a bonus but yes I was more thinking not everyone might have all the perms.
Pet-buffing spray is a positive effect, so it will get removed by the NS after she takes her first swing at you. If you have safe moxie once that is gone, getting hit once doesn't really matter.
bmaher: Softcore character
lostcalpolydude: Hardcore character (abandoned)

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