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HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:30 pm
by Draco Cracona
After a discussion with madd today, I threw together the following: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... jRHVk5BZlE. This has some extra stuff it doesn't need, as +item% doesn't factor in (king is 3 rats anway). I've taken a guess at the combat rate in the tavern as 75% combat; I don't know the exact rate, but that sounds about right. I've taken the length as 8 adv, excluding the faucet, before factoring in skipped noncombats. assumed +100ML, although +300 also gives stickers as better.

Numbers speak clearly, even with some tweaks of the rates- the dragons are definately worth summons. I'm happy with 7 sticker summons assigned for a 7 day run.

Re: HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:51 pm
by top1214
You don't need dragons w/imp ring, ninja hot pants, double ice-cap, piddles (@11), Little bit firghtening (KFH), and the stinky pool buff.

Ice-cap may be dubious for fast(er) players, and ninja hot pants aren't guaranteed.

Re: HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:30 pm
by Draco Cracona
top1214 wrote:You don't need dragons w/imp ring, ninja hot pants, double ice-cap, piddles (@11), Little bit firghtening (KFH), and the stinky pool buff.

Ice-cap may be dubious for fast(er) players, and ninja hot pants aren't guaranteed.
Stuff you should have:
Piddles;
Elemental paste [ninja snowman stomp];
Obsidian Dagger;
POSSIBLY bejewelled cufflinks.

That adds up to +19 prismatic that you should have, if you get cufflinks then you're sorted. Snarl covers spooky, pool buff covers stinky, imp unity covers hot, and then magical ice cubes can cover cold?

The question then becomes:
Without dragons in the equation, how good are stickers? How good are snowcones as summons, and how much does this change because of the fact that you can't get repeats in a day? That's a topic I'll look at at some point soon.

Re: HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:24 pm
by top1214
If you're skipping stickers, is it not worth it to try to keep KFH buffs up?

Cold: Piddles + Double ice OR Piddles + Cold wad OR Piddles + Tea party buff (SC helmet) OR PIddles + Elemental paste + Cold nuggets/Bejeweled Cufflinks OR Piddles + Bejeweled Cufflinks + Cold nuggets (Round purple sunglasses of Titanium Assault Umbrella)

Hot: Piddles + Imp Unity + ninja hot pants OR Piddles + Imp Unity + Orange Candy Heart OR Piddles + Hot Wad OR PIddles + Blessing of Charcoatl (5 ball on an altar (does this cost a turn?)) OR Piddles + Demonic Paste OR Piddles + Imp Unity + Elemental paste (Tonic Water elemental in DD!)

Re: HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:39 am
by Draco Cracona
I guess you could use the D6 hatter for cold, and that laves some hot- I'd prefer not to eat a wad, usually, and have no idea about if teh billiard balls at the altars take turns.

Re: HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:49 am
by lostcalpolydude
Draco Cracona wrote:and have no idea about if teh billiard balls at the altars take turns.
They do take turns.

Re: HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:02 am
by top1214
Draco Cracona wrote:I guess you could use the D6 hatter for cold, and that laves some hot- I'd prefer not to eat a wad, usually, and have no idea about if teh billiard balls at the altars take turns.
Consider it a combined HCO/HCT strat. Wads are more acceptable for that space in HCT.

Re: HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:27 am
by Draco Cracona
Yeah, wads are an option in HCT. As the billiard balls do take turns (thanks, lost), hot is the weakest. That leaves keeping a paste from D2 all the way until the end of the run, stomping a tonic elemental (I'd forgotten about those guys- always been using snowmen) or going for a snowman stomp. Tonic elemental is obv. better if you can get it, although I'd probably just keep a paste from the friars.

Re: HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:15 am
by Draco Cracona
So, nobody pointed out that my spreadsheet was wrong. Oops. Note to self: remember to multiply by the expected length of the tavern for #kings. That helps a lot. Anyway, cross posted from GD:

Well, now that I've actually found and corrected my spreadsheet (I, uhh, had forgotten to factor in the length of the cellar for the #kings. Was a very daft moment.), I can tell you this: If you're able to get over +116ML (no surprise, as that's 300/2.577, i.e. the max ML for kings/turn savings per king), then you want to run +combat. Everything is independent of the amount of +item you run, as each king is 2 more rats, effectively. Using Darth/Pewt's 85% combat rate numbers, assuming +10% and -15% combat available, although changing those last two doesn't shift the results much at all.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... BZlE#gid=0.

100 is trivial in BIG! ur-kel, BBB, MCD, Drescher, Poncho, lapdog. Gong would push you over the threshold, although in BIG! there's not much else. Don't run a hound. Run a Buggedbear. Do tavern pre-song set. ML >>> +combat.

Outside of BIG!, you're looking at swapping in the belt, unpopular and probably a clock in HCO, and losing... not much. You save 0.8 turns from noncombat skipping, at +5% com/+116ML, and thus BBB is better than hound, so you only have +5% combat here.

Guess I have to change parts of my normal run plan. Oops.

Re: HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:36 pm
by maddsurgeon
Draco Cracona wrote:Outside of BIG!, you're looking at swapping in the belt, unpopular and probably a clock in HCO, and losing... not much. You save 0.8 turns from noncombat skipping, at +5% com/+116ML, and thus BBB is better than hound, so you only have +5% combat here.

Guess I have to change parts of my normal run plan. Oops.
I think your link is broken... it wasn't working for me, at any rate.

So I can't see the comparison of +NC vs. +C savings. If ML beyond +116ML is not useful, isn't feasible to run the Hound rather than the BBB? I've got +116 at level 8 without the Bugbear, assuming peppermints:

Astral Belt +20
Assaulted w/Pepper +20
Lapdog +20
Peppermint Twist +10
Drescher's +10
Radio +10
Hipposkin Poncho +10
Ur-Kel's +16

I guess a poncho isn't guaranteed anymore, but I still fax a mariachi on Moxie runs, so it's trivial to force it.

Re: HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:44 pm
by lostcalpolydude
maddsurgeon wrote:I think your link is broken... it wasn't working for me, at any rate.
Link fixed.
If ML beyond +116ML is not useful
ML up to +300 is useful. 116 is just the point where you should run +C instead of +NC (according to DC's math).

Re: HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:52 pm
by top1214
I believe poncho is guaranteed if you run 233.34% item drop.

ETA: Which is a point you hinted at, without explicitly stating.

Re: HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:33 pm
by maddsurgeon
lostcalpolydude wrote:ML up to +300 is useful. 116 is just the point where you should run +C instead of +NC (according to DC's math).
Okay, that makes sense. thanks. And it looks like, according to the spreadsheet, the +20 from the Bugbear is more useful than the +5 from the hound. I'll keep using the Bugbear, and maybe even throw on a perfume of prejudice or something.

Re: HCO: Tavern strategy.

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:15 am
by ungawa
I was doing some tavern math of my own, and I noticed you have the average base length being 8 adventures.
With the Search the Body noncombat, shouldn't the quest be evenly distributed between 5 to 8 tiles that could be a combat/crate? I don't know how much it would change your results, but would it be more accurate to use 6.5 adventures as the average base length?

Edit: Oh, I see. 116ML is when a combat is expected to save 1 adventure (116ML/300ML*2.577=1), so the 116 number is independent of quest length or combat rate. Of course, at this break even point, combats are slightly preferable for the experience.