Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

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lightwolf
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Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by lightwolf » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:11 pm

The new Content Familiar's relevance appears to be tied to the stepmother zone, acquiring coins which are used to purchase quest items not entirely unlike some of the KolHS quest items.

This is just an attempt to start discussion. My numbers/conclusions may not actually represent facts or accuracy.

Opportunity cost:
Getting Mask
It current requires 40-50 turns with the familiar to get one mask, or significantly less turns if you put it in the crown of thrones (I've gotten it in 2 turns in CoT when stretching out combat rounds. Which may or may not be relevant).

Considering the number of turns we have to spend with other familiars already however, getting 1 mask without CoT is going to be tight, and getting more than one mask is going to start forcing us to make a more direct tradeoff with other familiar utility. On the other hand it is a fairy/lep...

This will play out Differently Between SC and HC due to CoT. Where HC will take a 40-50 turn investment per mask, it will be possible to get a mask per day at relatively low turn count using CoT, with the potential of 3-4 in a two day run.

Turn cost
Stepmother mask has 6 sub zones, each of which has a coin you acquire in 1 turn guaranteed. Using a second mask will reset the progress of the zone allowing you to get another 6 coins. It is unknown if the progress will also reset and remain available after rollover.

As far as I know these are statless NC turns. This means the turn saving benifit of the items you buy will be subtracted by the number of coin/turns it cost to buy them.

As each coin takes 1 turn to acquire, pulling them would only save 1 turn if you have the mask.

You could however pull a mask to get 6 coins. Each additional mask you pull will get you 6 additional coins by resetting quest progress...

The quest items
Using the coin [spend] link you an use one of...

For 2 you can buy a 1 fullness awesome food
For 3 you can buy a 1 drunk Epic booze
For 3 you can also buy a +50ML buff for 15 turns
For 4 you can buy a fancy oil painting (10 bridge completion)
For 5 you can buy some beads (16-20 crypt completion. 4-5 in each zone)
For 5 you can get an off-hand that helps with desert exploration. (3% after the first turn.)

Turn Saving speculation
The food and booze are ill relevant, or possibly simply an after core sink for coins. The turn cost of the coins to get them outweighs the adv/fullness gain. Dont know if they have any buffs or not.

The +50 ML buff... assuming you have plenty of other ML sources shouldn't be a factor. You could arguably compare it to the llama gong, which takes 3 turns to get 30 ML as well but potentially gives you stats. Or spending 3-5 turns trying to get a pail for the Hatter ML buff every day of your run. Things we generally dont do anymore anyway.

Fancy oil painting:
Cost 4
Helps with bridge progress
10 bridge progress is worth 15-20 turns (20 bridge parts). Meaning after its cost this item is a net saving of 11-16 turns. After the 12-14 progress from the pirates bridge... 2 of these will complete the quest at a cost of 8 stat less turns collecting coins. Though the 2nd is a bit more inefficient.

But we would need to compare it to other bridge quest completion items, like keepsake boxes or snow boards which make 5 bridge progress at the cost of 0 turns. And would otherwise be 3 keepsake or 3 snow boards to complete the quest in 0-3 turns. Instead of 8.

Assuming one oil painting is worth 2 keepsake boxes... Each keep sake box would be worth a pull valuing 3-5 turns saving elsewhere. So 4 turns spent for on painting saves two pulls or 6-10 turns. Net saving of 2-6.

Comparing it to snow boards on the other hand saves you 4 snow berries, or frees you up to use a different garden. Which makes my head hurt. I guess you'd either go back to skeletons then and save 12 turns there (though you'd have to pull 1 keep sake box, or spend turns to finish the last 6-8 of the bridge). Or only use 1 snowboard instead of 3, and figure out how much 4 snow berries is worth to you elsewhere.


some beads
Cost 5
Reduces Crypt
This item, like the KolHS thingy, reduces each of the crypt zone counters by 4-5. But how much does that really help... Since most of the crypt turns are worth more than 1 point anyway when being optimal.

Example: Zombies is about 9 turns: 3 modern zombies and 5 turns looking for the first modern zombie to copy/arrow. If you reduce the spookiness by 4-5, that just means you only need to fight 1 less modern zombie. So you save a putty or an arrow? It still takes you 1-5 turns to find the first modern, after which you'd only need 2 more copies to finish the zone off instead of 3. Or if you luck out and get the modern on the first turn you'd only need 4 moderns instead of 5.

Similarly your probably using 8-12 beep ghouls. 4 beep liches, and 3 beep evil eyes. So you maybe save 2 turns at liches, 2-4 turns at skeletons, 1 turn at zombies, 0-1 turn at ghouls. The item however cost you 5 stat-less turns to farm the coins. For a saving of maybe 1-3 turns?


dousing rod
Cost: 5 coins/turns
Use: 3% desert exploration instead of 2% with the UV.*
* After the first turn
* May or may not speed up page finding

Well its 3 turns to get UV compass vs 5 turns to get dousing rod. Even though it cost more it should save you more at any rate?

Currently...
the quest takes about 2 pamphlets, and you can usually finish finding pages by 70% exploration +0-5 extra turns. Which is 20-25 turns with UV compass (counting the free hipster fights we use here, which makes this zone take less turns then appear). This allows you to potentially skip finding stone rose after farming a drum machine (only 1-4 turns in oasis). Or allows you to skip worrying about killing jar if you get stone rose while farming drum machine and hydrating anyway (save getting lucky or YR).

So 2 pamphlet, worm ridding, and UV is about...
24-29 with Killing jar
26-31 farm stone rose

3 Pamphlets means you only need 28 turns to finish without worm riding. You would spend 18 turns there where you could find pages however, which might shave some turns.


Contra wise...
For Two pamphlets, worm ridding manual, Dousing... Depends how fast you can find the pages. If you can find all the pages in 14 turns there wont be any overlap. Finding them between 14 and 24 means worm ridding still saves you turns, but anything over 18 becomes close to equivalent with UV since dousing cost 2 extra turns. And it would be worse then 3 pamphlets

For 3 pamphlets, and a dousing rod, you'd only need to spend 19 turns here. But that requires 5-8 turns farming a stone rose still. and +2 for this over UV.

For Three pamphlets, worm ridding manual, and dousing... you'd have to find all the pages in 9 turns before there would be any overlap. Finding them all between 9 and 18 means worm ridding still saves you turns.

Then there is some weirdness in that the first turn with dousing rod is 1% instead of 3%...

Drum machine is 1-4 turns farming
Stone rose + drum machine is 6-8 turns farming
Stone rose instead of Killing jar for 2 pamphlets is + 2-4 turns
Killing jar sometimes drops naturally... but otherwise requires a YR day 1 (usually your first if your setting song before firars... unless you put off friars until day 2 [if you can get to 7 without that quest AND dont need NC anywhere else])... or back farming...

Farming Dousing rod over UV is +2 turns, but saves turns depending on how fast you farm pages
5 turns to find gnasir and activate pages for UV
4 turns to find gnasir and activate pages for dousing (so dousing gains back 1 no matter what)


Ok I stopped being useful and just started rambling here.

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lostcalpolydude
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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by lostcalpolydude » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:39 pm

In softcore, a fancy oil painting lets you go with a skeleton garden and a snow machine, letting you make 1 snow board to go with the painting.

It looks like people will have to get a bunch of data on how the dousing rod affects page finding (if at all).
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maddsurgeon
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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by maddsurgeon » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:08 pm

lightwolf wrote:Stepmother mask has 6 sub zones, each of which has a coin you acquire in 1 turn guaranteed. Using a second mask will reset the progress of the zone allowing you to get another 6 coins. It is unknown if the progress will also reset and remain available after rollover.
When rollover hit, ShroomAddict had a half-done Stepmother zone with about 15 minutes left at the part and a score of 1... still the case when I logged on just now. I didn't farm any of the coins from that one, so maybe if I had they would have reset, but somehow I'm doubting it. I think the only way to reset your progress is to use a new mask.

Probably kind of a moot point because I can't see you using more than one of these things? Maybe in Softcore.
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lightwolf
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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by lightwolf » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:20 pm

The difficulty of my wolf zone houses reset, even though the zone and time remaining values persisted across rollover. I think.

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maddsurgeon
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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by maddsurgeon » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:19 pm

lightwolf wrote:The difficulty of my wolf zone houses reset, even though the zone and time remaining values persisted across rollover. I think.
Hmmm, let me hop on top Alton and harvest some coins, see what happens after roll.

ETA: Nope, no new coins available.
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LeafyGreens
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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by LeafyGreens » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:06 am

lostcalpolydude wrote:In softcore, a fancy oil painting lets you go with a skeleton garden and a snow machine, letting you make 1 snow board to go with the painting.

It looks like people will have to get a bunch of data on how the dousing rod affects page finding (if at all).
This is what I was planning to do, farm up a mask with the crown (once I have the familiar anyway) since it's useful up there anyway, spend the 4 turns for the painting and use the snow machine and a clover to finish it off. Assuming I don't need the ovens turngen for the run this would finish the whole bridge for 5 turns and a clover unless the pirate bridge was real lucky. And saves the 2-3 keepsake pulls for other things. This is using skeletons as my garden.

The crown effects are pretty sweet too, in SCNP you can get maxed NC trivially. You might be able to skip a NPZR kit pull since those are getting pricier.

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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by littlelolligagged » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:08 pm

With dousing rod equipped, and using hipster - post getting to Gnasir, and turning in my killing jar and black paint to bring me up to 40% explored.
The H-0 is the hipster fight that fired.

0 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 2 0 H-0 3 0 0 0 3 0 0

and at that point I was 100% explored and it no longer mattered.

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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by LeafyGreens » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:27 pm

If you get the jar and paint with a dowsing rod, it will take 29 turns flat with no RNG if you don't bother with hydrating or the oasis. 5 getting rod, 4 opening gnasir, and 20 in the desert unhydrated not including free fights or arrowed monsters. The math with pages and stuff confuses me, but that's the baseline right there, no clovers or drum machine needed.

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lightwolf
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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by lightwolf » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:27 pm

that's IF you get the jar. Which still seems to be hit or miss without going out of your way.

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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by LeafyGreens » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:09 pm

I was thinking SC, so you'd have more item drop, or you could pull a jar, but at that point you'd probably be better off going for the rose? Also the scenario has no statless UH/rose adv but is probably a couple turns slower than with the pages.

I think the whole desert thing might be a case by case thing depending on situation and path.

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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by transplanted_entwife » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:55 pm

Thank you for the info! The dousing rod looks intriguing, at the very least, but I am unsure of where I would fit in the 40-50 turns I need to spend with the familiar during a low 600 turncount HCNP run. I hope to look at my familiar usage from this last run, try out the coin attainment this aftercore, and then possibly give it a go whenever RL says "Hey, TE, it's cool to ascend".
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Draco Cracona
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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by Draco Cracona » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:33 am

lightwolf wrote:that's IF you get the jar. Which still seems to be hit or miss without going out of your way.
You may as well sniff in there, if nothing else. You're not likely to need anything else from in there, due to the low chance of getting 3 candles without going out of your way.

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lostcalpolydude
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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by lostcalpolydude » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:23 am

Apparently the dowsing rod is only 3% exploration when you are hydrated, otherwise it's 1%. According to G-D at least, but it would explain 1% from the first turn.
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LeafyGreens
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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by LeafyGreens » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:01 am

That's disappointing, especially if the compass doesn't work that way (I don't actually know).

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maddsurgeon
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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by maddsurgeon » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:25 pm

LeafyGreens wrote:That's disappointing, especially if the compass doesn't work that way (I don't actually know).
The message you get with the compass implies that it does, but I've never really tested.
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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by slaphappy snark » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:05 pm

I have accidentally tested the UV compass on a few occasions and can confirm that it does work unhydrated.

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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by Draco Cracona » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:09 am

Grim mask charge does NOT carry over between days, it seema. Makes it useless in HCO, at least.

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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by maddsurgeon » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:17 pm

Draco Cracona wrote:Grim mask charge does NOT carry over between days, it seema. Makes it useless in HCO, at least.
That's good to know, but it doesn't make it completely useless. On my last run, I was able to fit in all the turns on day 5.
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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by Phreddrickk » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:44 pm

I read in /hardcore about someone implying that it does carry over. I suppose this may or may not be the case, but it might require further spading.

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lostcalpolydude
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Re: Grim Mask Ascension Relevance

Post by lostcalpolydude » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:18 pm

The latest guesswork I've seen indicates that it carries over, unless you get a mask drop, then further turns that day don't count for the next day.
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