The Shore and tower items bug?

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Prestige
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The Shore and tower items bug?

Post by Prestige » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:52 am

OK what's up with the Shore? I was just reading on the forums about someone who said every time they take a shore trip after not visiting the shore for a while, they get one of the tower items. Now I was about to correct them and say that only happens when you are on the 6th tower monster, however...

It seems like shore really has been doing this. I shored for the first time in my current HC run yesterday and got an item on the first trip. Then after spending turns elsewhere, the next day I returned to finish off my first five shore trips and got a tower item again. And I seem to recall getting a tropical orchid on my first trip last ascension too, so this been going on for at least a week.

So I jumped on my spading multi and got a tower item from its first trip as well. (This multi is unascended and already finished the tower.) I then started testing whether there was some kind of timer. I spent x turns away from the shore, then returned. Out of 8 trials, each time spending between 9 to 15 turns away between each shore trip, I couldn't draw any conclusions, although I got a tower item about half of the times I tried. Coincidence? I'm thinking there's a counter of about 20-30 turns after which the shore will always dole out a guaranteed tower item. It's probably just based on turncount and it doesn't matter whether or not you're spending time away from the shore.

Questions: Is this happening as I suspect? If so, is it a bug? Also can this save you turns in HC? (Yes)

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Post by Seal Lubber » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:15 am

I did Big Boat about 30 days ago, so I've got a lot of logs available if anybody wants them. I'll have a quick look myself for any patterns.

EDIT:I had a look through half my logs, so 500 trips give or take a 100, and it's possible that there is a feature here.

(A) The minimum turns between Tropical Orchids that I saw was 4. This involved a shore trip for an orchid, a detour to pick up some Cadaver booze, then another orchid upon returning to the shore. Another time I had Orchid-Stats-Orchid, so there probably isn't a minimum (unless it's impossible to get consecutive Orchids, which would take a lot of turns to prove).

(B) There were other times were I took a turn to fight a Cadaver in the middle of shoring, but when I returned to the shore I didn't get an orchid.

(C) A hard maximum cap is harder to prove, but there is some evidence for it:
(i) All (61 counted so far) orchids were found within 36 turns, except for the first orchid each day where there would be a bounty and sex change before shoring.

- I've got 61 orchids where none of them took more than 36 turns. I don't know whether that's RNG or needs more data.

(ii) My first shore of the day was generally an orchid, and where an orchid was found on the first shore the turncount since the last orchid was always more than 30.
In the single exception where the first orchid came on the 5th shore, I'd had a particularly quick bounty/sexchange. In this case the turns since the last orchid was 36, consistent with (i) above.

- I've got 7/7 occasions where an orchid is found first shore while the turncount since the last orchid is more than 30. That's probably not just RNG.

I'm pretty sure there's hard a cap on turns between orchids and it's about 30 turns. Someone could try spending 27, 28, 29, 30, etc turns away for a more accurate turncount.

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Post by Prestige » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:11 pm

So yeah, it's looking like you always get a tower item from the shore if it's been 30 or more turns since you got the last one. The turns can be spent anywhere. As far as I can tell this happens all the time, regardless of whether you've hit the tower or not. This seems like a bug.

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Post by KujjieKujjieKoo » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:17 pm

Interesting. does anyone have old logs they could consult, where shore trips were taken many turns apart? It's possible that this was the "safety" mechanic built in with NS13, and we're just now noticing it.
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Post by Prestige » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:35 pm

I'm certain this hasn't been happening as far back as NS13. Maybe it was introduced around the time of the pirates or in the last month.

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Post by alacrity » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:58 pm

So, ahh, sounds like the queue (conceptually speaking, of course.) ;-)

Edited for clarity:
Assuming that you have to spend time away from the shore to make this mechanic work, it resembles the "metagaming" feel of queue manipulation in that your odds change by leaving a zone and returning later.
Last edited by alacrity on Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Antipasta » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:09 am

I was able to do this 3-for-3 just now, one of each tower item. But then missed a fourth one:

adv #, result:
2652 (long gap), fence
2690 (38 turn gap), tropical orchid
2733 (43 turn gap), dynamite
2766 (33 turn gap) - tried for fence, nothing

This is with a character that's already been through the tower, in case that affects anything. Gaps are between starts of vacations, not turns done between vacations.

So was the failure on the last one because the gap was too small, or because I had one of everything in inventory now?

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Post by Prestige » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:43 pm

Antipasta, not sure why you got that negative result. I just tested trying to get the barbed wire fence, spending intervals of 33+, 32, and 31 turns between shore trips. I got it on all three tries. Also, I had at least one of each of the 3 tower items in my inventory.

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Post by AxiS Shadowbane » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:35 pm

I'm not sure if you guys are still testing this or whatever but I've done this the last couple of ascension and it still seems to be working.

Has saved me 3 adv's each run :)

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Post by alacrity » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:23 pm

Fascinating. Maybe this is the actual implemented mechanic, which appeared to simply be that the next visit after encountering the tower monster would drop a tower item. The mechanic proposed is more general, however: any visit after waiting enough turns (30? 35?) will drop a tower item.

Does it have to be a number of turns away from the shore, or is it a straight counter? Does anyone have recent logs from a Big Boat run where hundreds of shore trips were done consecutively?

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Post by Seal Lubber » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:34 pm

alacrity wrote:Does it have to be a number of turns away from the shore, or is it a straight counter? Does anyone have recent logs from a Big Boat run where hundreds of shore trips were done consecutively?

My Big Boat was mid-December. There was never more than 36 turns between Orchids, apart from between days where I would sex-change and lucre.

I think you're probably right and this was the actual mechanic all along, we just didn't know it.

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Post by Archayts » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:54 pm

I'm currently about 2/3 through my way to big boat, anyone who would like to analyse the log please forum PM me.
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Post by Brulak » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:26 am

I just did a tower level 6 shore trip and got my dynamite on the first try. No tower item on the first five trips (which were done in a row).

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Post by NotJim » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:58 pm

KujjieKujjieKoo wrote:Interesting. does anyone have old logs they could consult, where shore trips were taken many turns apart? It's possible that this was the "safety" mechanic built in with NS13, and we're just now noticing it.


When I was doing my large trophytrip run last July, I was noticing the very same mechanic where I was -always- getting a stick of dynamite the very first turn after shoring, 1000% sure on this. (I was doing a bout of shoring, then hunting lucre and whatnot each day, defintely more than 40 turns in between.)

So, yeah, I believe you are correct there. :)

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:12 am

Looks like you need a minimum of 30 turns to guarantee a tower item. When spending less than 30 turns I'm 4/15 (26.7%), when spending 30 turns of more I'm 8/8 (100%).

Multi #1:
dynamite

20 turns
no dynamite
15 turns
dynamite

15 turns
no dynamite
5 turns
dynamite

23 turns
no dynamite
no dynamite
1 turn
dynamite

24 turns
no dynamite
dynamite

28 turns
dynamite

23 turns
no dynamite
no dynamite
no dynamite
dynamite

Multi #2:
orchid

29 turns
no orchid
orchid

28 turns
orchid

27 turns
no orchid
orchid

26 turns
no orchid
orchid

30 turns
orchid

30 turns
orchid

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:55 pm

This isn't working anymore. Not sure what changed, or if it was accidental, but a 30 turn break no longer guarantees a shore item.

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Post by Brulak » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:54 am

Still works on my account. Checked about ten minutes ago.

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:00 am

Might still work in general, but it's no longer 100%. I had a dev (hellion) verify that it was not working yesterday - unless it has been fixed back since then.

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Post by Seal Lubber » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:18 am

Just got my expected stick of dynamite.

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Post by TeKRunneR » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:03 am

I can confirm it sometimes doesn't work anymore. Failed to get an item on two different occasions, with a 30 and 31 turns interval.

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Post by NotJim » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am

Doing this in 40-turn intervals (at least) worked for me...

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Post by JediJules » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:40 pm

I actually haven't had 30 fail in 6 tries since QN's post above. I don't deny that it is failing, but the failure rate doesn't seem to be all that high.

Just speculation, but it seems a bit unlikely to me that they would just randomly change it to a different hard minimum. Perhaps the probability of getting it is just a function of how long you wait now -- the longer the more likely, but with no magic "guarantee " number.

Anyway, unless the failure rate at 30 turns is higher than the anecdotal results posted here suggest, I don't see that this change really makes too much difference as far as planning.

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Post by Prestige » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:37 pm

I've definitely noticed that I don't get a tower item on my first shore trip of an ascension anymore. Actually I don't know if was previously the case. Still, later intervals seemed to give tower items.

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Post by Antipasta » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:29 pm

I've had it fail multiple times at 30-31-32, including a couple of contest runs, so now I wait a few turns longer, maybe 36+. I haven't had a failure at longer intervals.

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Post by alacrity » Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:10 pm

Antipasta wrote:I've had it fail multiple times at 30-31-32, including a couple of contest runs, so now I wait a few turns longer, maybe 36+. I haven't had a failure at longer intervals.

Interesting, sounds like a fun new thing to spade. Could be a good candidate for the AFHk spade contest. :)

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Post by Hairy » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:55 am

FWIW, I encountered a gap of over 30 turns between tower items way back on March 10 -- I got a stick of dynamite on turn 531, vacationed again on turn 566 (ie, 35-turn gap) and got a mysticality gain. (Vacationed immediately after that on turn 569 and got a barbed wire fence, which may or may not have been purely random.)

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Post by MonsterERB » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:08 pm

I can confirm this; the following is copy-pasted from my quest log of my current run:

Code: Select all

V1 (202); V2 (326 dynamite); V3 (363); V4 (411 orchid); V5 (451 fence; done)

Basically, I take the vacation, then check my character page for # of turns used on current run, then make the note in the log. So, this means:

Code: Select all

Vacation 1 taken (used turns 200-201-202)
Vacation 2 taken (used turns 324-325-326, got dynamite)
Vacation 3 taken (used turns 361-362-363, did not get expected orchid)
Vacation 4 taken (used turns 409-410-411, got orchid)
Vacation 5 taken (used turns 449-450-451, got fence)

...
If it's a contest/speed run, I would wait a MINIMUM of 36 turns between shore visits, as I had a 35-turn gap and still got nothing. Forty turns might be safer until more spading is done.

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:00 pm

MonsterERB wrote:If it's a contest/speed run, I would wait a MINIMUM of 36 turns between shore visits, as I had a 35-turn gap and still got nothing. Forty turns might be safer until more spading is done.
Since I've seen the discussion come up in two threads (on different forums) recently, I figured it was worth bumping. That's actually a 34 turn gap there, not 35. You were at 326 after one shore trip, and you were at 360 before you went into the next one.

The clear numbers (which I didn't pay much attention to a year ago) make it clear that 30 turns spent away from the shore isn't enough, and I've never heard anyone say that 35 doesn't work, so any time this topic comes up people should just link to the post above.
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Post by Hellion » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:41 am

Just a heads-up:
Jick recently became aware of the way this mechanic actually works (as opposed to the way he intended it to work) and is considering fixing it to be in line with his original intention.

(which was, if you haven't gotten a combat item in 10 SHORE TRIPS, you get it on the 11th trip.)

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Post by stupac2 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:48 am

That would be an incredibly unfortunate change.

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:50 am

Indeed, it would essentially make telescope piece #7 worthless.
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Post by stupac2 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:53 am

lostcalpolydude wrote:Indeed, it would essentially make telescope piece #7 worthless.
Actually it would make it more useful, since having it would be the only way to potentially avoid five-ten extra shore trips, whereas now having it just allows you to only separate out one trip instead of three.

But still, it makes the shore massively sucky instead of just "kinda sucky".

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Post by rottingflesh » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:53 am

Hellion wrote:(which was, if you haven't gotten a combat item in 10 SHORE TRIPS, you get it on the 11th trip.)
If this happens, I'm just going to quit ascending for good. Too much RNG involvement is a bad thing.

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Post by Fred Nefler » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:20 am

stupac2 wrote:
lostcalpolydude wrote:Indeed, it would essentially make telescope piece #7 worthless.
Actually it would make it more useful, since having it would be the only way to potentially avoid five-ten extra shore trips, whereas now having it just allows you to only separate out one trip instead of three.

But still, it makes the shore massively sucky instead of just "kinda sucky".
That's for softcore, of course. In hardcore, it isn't as useful. Let's you know to spend ALL of your mandatory shore trips at the one vacation zone, but if you don't get it during those you're just at the total mercy of the RNG. And we all know what that does to speed runs.

For the love of god and sanity and all things you enjoy, please don't let Jick do that Hellion.

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Post by brb » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:40 am

Please please please do not let Jick do that. It's a random +15 turns to a hc run with no control. 15 turns is huge in a speed run. I strongly dislike things with zero control.

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:41 am

After thinking about this some, it seems that the very least that should be maintained is the ability to see the tower 6 monster, discover that you don't have the right item, and immediately get it from the shore.
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Post by NotJim » Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:41 am

Jick can go take that idea and shove it up his ass if that happens :>

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Post by kevbob » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:23 am

is he gonna twiddle the zap groups around at all?

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Post by rottingflesh » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:51 am

Why not just have both mechanics? :roll:

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Post by kevbob » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:58 am

rottingflesh wrote:Why not just have both mechanics? :roll:
why not let homeopathic powder work the way it used to?

why not ADD a skill for newdles and keep oldles working the way it used to?

if jick coded something to work a certain way, and it's NOT working that way, it makes sense that he's going to want it to work the way he intended.

one reason not to want him to change it, would be because i appreciate the inherent beauty of its current implementation. i can explain to him how beautiful it currently is, and implore him not to change it to the way he wants it.

another reason not to want him to change it, would be because i like the effect of the current mechanic. i can implore him to change it however he wants it to work but to allow me to get the effect of the old mechanic in a different manner.

given past experiences, though, it is likely that jick's vision of how he wants this to work involves both the mechanic and the effect. for example, the oracle bug back in ns11 with zero turns. "fix the bug jick, but please let me get a guaranteed oracle!".

given how well that, and many many others, worked out, the second option is to try and predict the negative effects to my gameplay and suggest sideways fixes to the effect.

this kind of falls into the category of "picking your battles".

jick has shown himself to be BOTH incredibly stubborn AND incredibly easy going.

it's quite possible that if he is presented with a rational and calm explanation of the negatives to this proposed bug fix, that he'll leave it as is OR change it another way.

it's also as possible that the fix will happen regardless, and that the higher the level of shrill presented to him, the less likely any side-ways fixes would be implemented.


so, why not have both mechanics?

well, that's up to jick. the first mechanic is apparently a BUG and he is probably going to fix it to work how he wants. the second mechanic was removed with ns13.

so, now we have 1 of 2. when jick fixes this bug, we'll have 0 of 2. personally, i don't think getting 2 of 2 is likely.

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Post by deusnoctum » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:33 pm

Is the shore programmed to give you the relevant tower item from the appropriate vacation immediately after failing tower 6, or is that just a manifestation of this bug?

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:38 pm

deusnoctum wrote:Is the shore programmed to give you the relevant tower item from the appropriate vacation immediately after failing tower 6, or is that just a manifestation of this bug?
There's no reason not to think that it's the latter.
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Post by slaphappy snark » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:15 pm

lostcalpolydude wrote:
deusnoctum wrote:Is the shore programmed to give you the relevant tower item from the appropriate vacation immediately after failing tower 6, or is that just a manifestation of this bug?
There's no reason not to think that it's the latter.
Especially because it doesn't only give you the relevant tower item from the appropriate vacation; it just gives you the combat item from the first vacation you take after failing tower 6.

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Post by deusnoctum » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:22 pm

Edit: Nevermind, I misread a double-negative.
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Post by lostcalpolydude » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:30 pm

For those not following along, this is relevant.

And my point in that post above is that it would be quite likely to add +15 turns to your run because you would NOT immediately get the tower item after failing at room 6.
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Post by JLE » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:55 pm

Not to mention the fact that, not getting a combat item isn't the worst thing that could necessarily happen: what about getting the WRONG combat item on shore trip 5 (due to not having Telescope piece 7)...

As I see it, the two important things are:

(1) Some way for people with telescope piece 7, to guarantee getting the correct combat item within the first 5 shore trips.

(2) For people without telescope piece 7, to have some non-sucky way of getting the correct shore combat item after the first 6 shore trips, no matter whether an incorrect shore combat item has been obtained in those first 6, or not.

The current situation actually fulfils that admirably.

Where Jick has been most insistent that it's a "bug", is in the fact that it's currently possible to guarantee *all three* combat items within the first five shore trips, by spacing the shore trips with 35 clear turns between them. (This, of course, potentially renders telescope piece 7 irrelevant again. It's also a tactic I quite happily adopted in Bad Moon.)

Now, personally, I think the above is good strategy, and should be left in place, no matter whether it was "intended" or not. But Jick may have, and probably does have, other ideas.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NOTE: The fact of "always getting the right shore item on the very next turn after finding out which one you need by running away from Tower 6" is not a factor of the bug. It is in fact a factor of the intentional part of the design, and of the fact that you'd inevitably spent WAY more than 30 turns (the length of 10 shore trips) since you last shored, by the time you actually get up the tower.

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