Optimal place to level (Updated 2/05/09)

This is where you spade, shovel and sickle. Or is it reap?
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Flolle
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Post by Flolle » Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:13 pm

While rechecking some numbers, I noticed that the Bedroom gives wrong stats for myst if the desired stat is set to muscle or moxie. Also, you might want to add the demon name superlikely (well, more like superunlikely ...) for the Bathroom since it gives 75 muscle substats. I felled like mentioning that, because I needed close to 5 minutes to figure out why my muscle stats were consistently 0.5 to 0.7 points higher. ;)

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:56 pm

Demon names happen once every 100-150 adventures... that's probably below the margin of error of calculations such as this, but I'll look it up and add it in.

As for the bedroom, I assume that if you aren't going for myst, you'd rather take 500 meat than go for useless offstats. Notice that when going for myst, the expected meatgain from the bedroom drops by quite a bit. So this is actually a feature, not a bug!

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Post by Flolle » Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:23 pm

QuantumNightmare wrote:As for the bedroom, I assume that if you aren't going for myst, you'd rather take 500 meat than go for useless offstats. Notice that when going for myst, the expected meatgain from the bedroom drops by quite a bit. So this is actually a feature, not a bug!

Huh, interesting. A design decision which I can respect. I often enough have to figure out how to handle some of the areas myself. :)

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:42 pm

Posted this on the main forum, realized that the "buy and use clover" option was b0rked. It's been fixed, along with several other small improvements.

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:24 pm

Bunch of updates:
- Bedroom takes into account 75% combats as a myst class. This was a rather big bug, thanks to all who reported it.
- Odor extractor effects are now more precise, and assumes you tag waltzers for stats or the middle chamber cats for meat.
- Meat (and thus clover usage) has been fixed when using the clover option. This was the old (x-1)/x used instead of x/(x+1)
- NPZR meat calculations are based on a maximum of 10 turns of meat stealing. Surprising how it's still slightly better than a leprechaun.
- Fixed handling of sombrero, and all ballroom familiars
- March Hare is now an option. It assumes you're wearing the familiar equipment, and boosts both stats and meat.

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Post by dalgar » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:07 pm

Hey, would you be able to include a gravychaun familiar, please?

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Post by Antipasta » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:32 pm

I was wondering about using the cyrpt for powerlevelling in the early game, though I haven't been able to figure out how that place really works. But I sure get a lot of the stat/combat item choice adventures in there, waiting for the boss. And the stats are good, with no manor unlocking to be done.

Do we know enough about how often those noncombats show up, and how they respond to +noncombat, to calculate it out? Is it different in the different zones?

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Post by Seal Lubber » Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:42 pm

Antipasta wrote:Do we know enough about how often those noncombats show up, and how they respond to +noncombat, to calculate it out? Is it different in the different zones?
They're standard non-combats with 15% rate.

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Post by alacrity » Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:49 pm

Seal Lubber wrote:
Antipasta wrote:Do we know enough about how often those noncombats show up, and how they respond to +noncombat, to calculate it out? Is it different in the different zones?
They're standard non-combats with 15% rate.


The wiki pages all say "Now that there are noncombats, what's the frequency?", except for the Defiled Nook page which has a slightly different note. :lol:

So, have we spaded that frequency ourselves? Are both non-combats as likely to occur as the other? Should we update the wiki if we're sure?

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:26 am

I've changed the familiar code to make it easier to add new familiars. Both the wizard and casagnova (fairy+leprechaun) have been added.

I don't think crypt is understood. Isn't it almost impossible to skip the boss combats, just as it's almost impossible to skip the clown lord? I remember some spading that after X amount of turns have passed in a single location, every single combat was a boss combat.

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Post by Bazzle » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:15 am

I have a request regarding the absinthe numbers. As I understand it right now you're only calculating the 9/5/1 numbers. I'd like to see the numbers for 5/1 to compare as well, since they're on average higher, though a less efficient use of absinthe. I can imagine mid-game situations where you might have a situation where 5/1 > Gallery > 9/5/1.

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:48 am

Second absinthe display has been added. Now calculates both 9/5/1 and 5/1.

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Post by dalgar » Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:36 pm

Thanks for the quick response.

Would you be able to add odor extracting of cubist bulls, goth giants, and evil olives (assuming those are the most valuable monsters in the area)?

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Post by Flolle » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:54 pm

QuantumNightmare wrote:I've changed the familiar code to make it easier to add new familiars.

In that case, care to add the Killer Bee?

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Post by alacrity » Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:22 pm

Flolle wrote:
QuantumNightmare wrote:I've changed the familiar code to make it easier to add new familiars.

In that case, care to add the O.A.F.?


Fixed.

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Post by Antipasta » Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:18 pm

QuantumNightmare wrote:Isn't it almost impossible to skip the boss combats, just as it's almost impossible to skip the clown lord? I remember some spading that after X amount of turns have passed in a single location, every single combat was a boss combat.


So I spent some time in the cyrpt while camping at lvl 4, collecting El Dia de los Muertos Borrachos drinks, "powerlevelling" my offstat. I didn't see any sign of the all-bosses thing happening. On the other hand, it was a pretty crappy levelling area.

This was in the alcove (top left, muscle area); I accepted all the stat advs and declined the boss. +10% noncombat.

This was mixed with absinthe trips, if it matters.

Total trips to the cyrpt: 166
Total adventures used: 132
Combats: 102
Stat Noncombats: 30
Boss Noncombats: 34 (declined, no adventure used)
Total noncombat stat gains: 1488
avg stat gain per adv. from noncombats: 11.3

ID Encounter
280 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
282 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
284 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
285 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
286 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
288 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
289 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
290 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
292 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
293 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
294 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
295 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
296 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
297 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
298 Encounter: Doublewide
298 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
299 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
300 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
302 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
306 Encounter: Doublewide
306 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
308 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
309 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
310 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
312 Encounter: Doublewide
312 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
315 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
316 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
319 Encounter: Doublewide
319 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
320 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
322 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
323 Encounter: Doublewide
323 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
324 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
325 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
326 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
327 Encounter: Doublewide
327 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
328 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
329 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
330 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
332 Encounter: Doublewide
332 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
334 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
335 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
336 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
339 Encounter: Doublewide
339 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
340 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
342 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
344 Encounter: Doublewide
344 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
345 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
346 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
350 Encounter: Doublewide
350 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
384 Encounter: Doublewide
384 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
385 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
387 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
391 Encounter: Doublewide
391 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
393 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
394 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
395 Encounter: Doublewide
395 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
397 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
400 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
401 Encounter: Doublewide
401 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
404 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
405 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
407 Encounter: Doublewide
407 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
408 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
409 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
410 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
411 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
412 Encounter: Doublewide
412 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
413 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
414 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
415 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
416 Encounter: Doublewide
416 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
418 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
421 Encounter: Doublewide
421 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
422 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
424 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
425 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
426 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
428 Encounter: Doublewide
428 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
431 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
432 Encounter: Doublewide
432 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
435 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
436 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
438 Encounter: Doublewide
438 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
439 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
440 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
441 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
442 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
443 Encounter: Doublewide
443 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
444 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
445 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
446 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
447 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
448 Encounter: Doublewide
448 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
449 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
451 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
455 Encounter: Doublewide
455 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
458 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
459 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
461 Encounter: Doublewide
461 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
463 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
464 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
465 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
467 Encounter: Doublewide
467 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
468 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
469 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
471 Encounter: Doublewide
471 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
472 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
473 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
474 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
475 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
476 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
478 Encounter: Doublewide
478 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
482 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
484 Encounter: Doublewide
484 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
485 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
486 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
488 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
492 Encounter: Doublewide
492 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
495 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
496 Encounter: Doublewide
496 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
498 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
499 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
500 Encounter: Doublewide
500 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
501 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
502 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
503 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
504 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
505 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
506 Encounter: Doublewide
506 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
507 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
508 Encounter: grave rober zmobie
509 Encounter: Turn Your Head and Coffin
510 Encounter: corpulent zobmie
511 Encounter: Doublewide
511 Encounter: corpulent zobmie

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QuantumNightmare
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Post by QuantumNightmare » Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:31 pm

Ah, my mistake. Here's the log I was talking about... it involves accepting the boss encounter buy running away/losing:
KujjieKujjieKoo wrote:First, here's the log of the data QN mentioned above. Some weird results, where if you run away from a boss, you seem to be guaranteed to encounter that same boss your following adventure.

[543] Defiled Alcove: Turn Your Head and Coffin
[543] Defiled Alcove: Turn Your Head and Coffin
[543] Defiled Alcove: grave rober zmobie
[544] Defiled Alcove: corpulent zobmie
[545] Defiled Alcove: grave rober zmobie
[546] Defiled Alcove: corpulent zobmie
[547] Defiled Alcove: grave rober zmobie
[548] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[549] Defiled Alcove: corpulent zobmie
[550] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[551] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[552] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[553] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[554] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[555] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[557] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[558] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[559] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[560] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[561] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[562] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[563] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[564] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[565] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[566] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[567] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[568] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[569] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[570] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[571] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[572] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[573] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[574] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
[575] Defiled Alcove: Doublewide (accepted, then ran away)
Your log shows that you can just reject the combat, and go on your way.

I'm more interested in the barrrr, the noncombats there look particularly powerful, and we can get in there relatively early.

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Post by feng shweez » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:55 pm

I haven't read the thread (so I;m sorry if this has been asked), but is it possible to have the Icy Peak added? I know it's never optimal, per se, but in Bad moon--say, as a Sauceror--the free ISBB and ram's head lager makes the peak rather appealing, and I'd like to see if/how much I'm losing out by going there.
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Post by QuantumNightmare » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:32 pm

I'm curious as well, particularly regarding meat gains when you sniff yetis. However no one has spaded the avalanche statgain formula, so we'll need to first work on that. If anyone has a character that has just hit level 8 and can spade this, let me know and I'll tell you what has to be done.

Kujjie and I are working on the barrr right now, but hopefully we'll be able to move to the peak in around 1-2 weeks.

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Post by salien » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:37 pm

Speaking of meat drops, and as I noticed you mentioned using the sheet for meat in another thread, couple things:

-Castle and palindome meat calculations don't take into account your familiar. (Easy to see, just switch between a volleyball and any fairy/lep type and nothing changes for them.)
-Middle chamber meat calulation should probably be a bit higher; you get more by pulverizing Iiti charms and then selling the pieces (even autoselling) than you do by selling the charm itself. Similarly, it's worth making the mummy wrappings into mummy masks and then smashing those.
-Kinda doubt this is worth adding, but if you were actually hitting the castle for meat you'd have some much different ratios for adventure outcomes since you'd turn the wheel to the back door. I wasn't really planning on using it to calculate meat myself, but if you want it to be an option... (I do have to say it was gratifying to see that your revised NPZR calculations were very close to what I came up with, even though I knew there was some error in the method I used; I'd figured the error was small but confirmation is always nice.)

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Post by Flolle » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:07 pm

Say QN, are toasts thrown into the NPZR meat calculation?

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:24 pm

Zones now properly update meat calculations for familiars. And I added a new "zone", castle when the wheel is set to the back door. You can always change the values of autoselling items yourself. And toast is for collecting, not autoselling!

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Post by Flolle » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:36 pm

QuantumNightmare wrote:And toast is for collecting, not autoselling!

:roll:

But at least I don't have to worry about values being off anymore. :D

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:51 pm

feng shweez wrote:is it possible to have the Icy Peak added?
Thank seal lubber for the statgain spading, and flolle for the encounter rate spading. It's been added.

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Post by Ziwa » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:55 pm

Error report:
In your calculation of the bathroom with mcd only, the noncombat musc and mox gains are being calculated based on the adjusted combat rate with full ml running.

And a note on your Gallery calculation:
If you're treating the knights as combats instead of noncombats, then shouldn't the average ML for the Gallery be non-constant? I haven't checked yet to see how big a difference it makes taking this into consideration.

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:44 am

Thanks, I've fixed that mistake. However, the variable ML among gallery monsters is so small.... if I correct it, results will only be ~0.4% more accurate than they are now. Basically, nothing would change.

I've also added odor extractor support for cubist bulls, regarding meat farming.

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:20 pm

Bugfix for ballroom stats: item drop familiars were being counted twice for dance card drop rates, which was fixed. I also added functionality for pickpocketing: moxie classes now assume you attempt to pickpocket zombie waltzers.

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Post by Ziwa » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:51 pm

Q: How are you calculating ML in the bedroom? 152.5 is lower than the ML from either nightstand based on Kittiwake's values.

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:55 pm

I...don't know. ML has been fixed, and results are now ~0.7% more accurate.

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Sat May 10, 2008 12:21 am

A friend pointed out to me that she was having issues with the spreadsheet not making sense. Sometimes she was getting more stats in the ballroom with a lower weight fairy than with a higher weight fairy. Without getting many details from her, I started testing it myself. I downloaded the current version (I had no idea which one was currently sitting on my computer). From the default values, I changed mainstat and desired stat both to moxie, and familiar type to fairy. Changing between 25 lbs and 40 lbs gave one value for moxie gain at 40 lbs. Changing between 45 and 40 lbs gave a different value for moxie gain at 40 lbs (it went from 99.5 moxie to 90.0 moxie, don't remember which value was for which set of switching). This is on Excel 2004 for Mac, iterations turned on, 100 iterations, change size set to 0.00001. I don't know if it's the spreadsheet or the software in this case, but I figured I should point it out.
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Post by Seal Lubber » Sat May 10, 2008 1:37 am

I can confirm Lostcal's problem on Excel 2007. It doesn't behave in any logical manner, sometimes going up/down/unchanged when you change familiar weight.

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sat May 10, 2008 4:36 pm

That's an excel error, due to iteration. The ballroom code has gotten heavier and heavier as features were added, and 100 iterations often aren't enough to get the stat calculation done properly. This is especially true if you drastically adjust the input conditions. Excel 2007 has the option of running more than 100 iterations and an all-around easier time handling the calculations, but excel 2004 sometimes breaks down.

There's not much I can do about that, but I'll look over the ballroom formulas and see if I can simplify them even more. If you have excel 2007, increase the maximum # of iterations. If you have excel 2004, try hitting F9 a few times to force more iterations to be done.

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Sat May 10, 2008 9:12 pm

From more experimenting, I don't think it's an iteration problem, there's just no convergence. Setting it to a single iteration, using default except for moxie/moxie/fairy, I can repeat it over and over at 40 lbs (done by retyping 40 and pressing Enter, since F9 does different stuff in OSX) and have it jump between 96.6 and 99.5 moxie gained. I switched it to 101 iterations at a time (an odd number) and watched the same thing happen, and it probably ran through over 1000 iterations by the time I was done playing with it.
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Post by deusnoctum » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:33 pm

Is it worth adding Hobopolis to the spreadsheet? I doubt offhand that it would ever be the best, but with a basically unlimited supply of level ~500 monsters, it should at least always be better than the bombed-out camps.

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Post by Antipasta » Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:30 pm

deusnoctum wrote:Is it worth adding Hobopolis to the spreadsheet? I doubt offhand that it would ever be the best, but with a basically unlimited supply of level ~500 monsters, it should at least always be better than the bombed-out camps.


The "Pick Your Nose" in the Purple Light District club is a tremendous stat adventure for high level chars (maxes out at 1000 substats for each stat, 1250 on a stat day, my lvl 20 char maxed it out). It looks like you have to flimflam once per every club entry, and the club adventure looks like its frequency is proportional to the +combat you run.

I think that works out to something not far from a Louvre on steroids (you only get into the club on half the noncombat adventures, similar to the way you only get a Louvre on half your gallery noncombats, with the caveat that that noncombats seem overall less common).

I'm not sure if there's a limit on how many you can get. If you cleesh all the hobos, that shouldn't count toward finishing the district, and the stat adventure doesn't seem to kill anybody. If the area is open, it seems like a great place to spend a day.

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:52 pm

I added roach leveling, hobopolis sewer, and town square. Need more info about picking your nose.

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:10 pm

There were some mistakes in the spreadsheet I just posted earlier... it's been fixed and updated yet again.

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Post by TeKRunneR » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:43 am

I'm in ur forums, turning ur spreadsheets into web appz D:

Hum, yeah, finally decided to take a shot at it. It doesn't calculate anything yet, but this is how I intend it to look like (don't be surprised if the style and colors look familiar). Any comment so far?

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:48 pm

TeKRunneR wrote:I'm in ur forums, turning ur spreadsheets into web appz D:

Hum, yeah, finally decided to take a shot at it. It doesn't calculate anything yet, but this is how I intend it to look like (don't be surprised if the style and colors look familiar). Any comment so far?

This looks pretty cool. I like what currently happens when you click Calculate.
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TeKRunneR
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Post by TeKRunneR » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:03 am

Hey, I think I have sufficiently flooded QN's kmail inbox lately so I'm posting this here.

You said you were looking to reduce the complexity of the ballroom's formula. When calculating the combat rate ignoring songs in H22 (quartet when moxie class, all noncombats otherwise), wouldn't it make sense to change the current circular reference to H14 to a formula that would say :
- if not moxie class or fight stats > curtain stats, combat rate = Turns per card / (Turns per card + 1)
- else, combat rate = base combat rate + modifier from quartet rerolling.

Something like

Code: Select all

=IF( OR(B3<>"moxie"; (H26/2>(H11*H14))); H22/(H22+1); H12*(1+H25+H25^2+H25^3+H25^4+H25^5+H25^6+H25^7+H25^8))


I'm not sure this actually improves anything, but I certainly would have had less trouble understanding that formula if it had been written that way D:

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Flolle
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Post by Flolle » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:17 am

Haha, sorry for the spam, but I knew there would be problems with the Ballroom calculation. :D

Not because of how QN calculates the Ballroom stats or because I think you're dumb (I do not think so!), but because I'm convinced it's the most complicated leveling zone in the game (at least for moxie classes).

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QuantumNightmare
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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:06 pm

Your changes look good, and should be implemented. I take it you now understand how the calculations are done? Sorry I couldn't get back to you last night before you needed to dive further into the giant mess of ballroom code...

Honestly, the biggest reason I haven't made the ballroom calculation cleaner is because Excel 2003 crashes and dies when I try to make changes to the ballroom calculation - I've reached the limits of what it can handle. The more recent changes have all been done on my campus computers running Excel 2007, but I won't have access to those computers until the fall.

Flolle - these changes don't effect the accuracy of the calculations. They just make the formulas much more readable, and less processor-intensive.

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Flolle
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Post by Flolle » Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:23 pm

QuantumNightmare wrote:Flolle - these changes don't effect the accuracy of the calculations. They just make the formulas much more readable, and less processor-intensive.

That's not what I meant, what I did mean was that the Ballroom has a couple more variables than any other leveling location (the tinkering with combat frequency due to dance cards and quartets to name the main one) and thus is far harder to put in formulas (and the formulas will look far more ugly). Areas such as the Bedroom or Gallery are pretty straight forward in comparison. So if there was a place where problems would arise, it was the Ballroom.

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Post by TeKRunneR » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:25 am

And some more ballroom talk, whee!

Yesterday I PMed QN about something I was disagreeing with in his spreadsheet. Namely, the conditional that tells you whether or not you should skip the curtains noncombats.
Currently it is :

Code: Select all

=IF(B3<>"moxie";0;IF(H26/2>(H11*H14);0;H14))

Which translates to : skip if you don't want moxie OR the stats from a regular combat are better than (stats_from_curtains * curtains_frequency). Why even include curtains_frequency in that formula? You're comparing 1 combat with 1 noncombat, and see which one is better. So I suggested that fix :

Code: Select all

=IF(B3<>"moxie";0;IF(H26/2>(H11);0;H14))

In english : skip if you don't want moxie OR the stats from a regular combat are better than stats from curtains.

But this is also far from being correct. You also have to take into account the chance of getting an additional dance card if you skip the curtains and reroll a combat. So the conditional should be : skip if (stats_from_combat + stats_from_added_chance_of_card) > stats from curtains.

But wait, it's not over. What if at 100% combat you are very likely to get a dance card every 3 turns ? If I didn't screw up my calculations this starts to happen with as few as +200% items (with olfaction). So if you get cards faster than you can use them you should start watching the dancers again. But if you watch all dancers, you combat rate will drop sharply, and so the average turns for a dance card will become larger. So the optimal thing to do would be to ignore *some* curtains (when you don't have a dance card yet?) but not all of them.

The question is, how the hell do you calculate all that ?

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Post by alacrity » Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:29 pm

I think it's slightly more complicated (or perhaps, simpler) than that Tek. For my purposes, the ballroom is where I level during a moxie run. I don't usually USE dance cards while I'm in the ballroom. I'm usually in there getting cards (and curtains, with noncombats maxed) to power through late level 8 and all of level 9, then start using dance cards at level 10 while doing the airship and castle. I'm not sure if this is the best way to go about it, but it seems to work pretty well.

From my perspective, the Curtains stats are directly contributing to my power-leveling needs now AND increasing the future effectiveness of every dance card I pick up.

I'm also only able to muster 100-130% item drops at that point, so my dance card drop rate is only 30-35% per dancer.

I'm not sure if the above fits in to your current model or not. Anyway, here's a stab at your question: If you are hitting a sweet spot where it's favorable to skip some curtains, then it seems like the right calculation is how many dance cards should you buffer. The decision to take or skip a Curtains adventure should be based on the number of dance cards you have, and the odds that you'll run out before picking up another one if you don't skip a Curtains now.

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Post by TeKRunneR » Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:49 pm

So, uh, I started off trying to reply to alacrity, but I thought about a solution for the "skip curtains" conditional instead. How does this look ?

(110+ML)/8 [combat moxie] + 0.77 [waltzer rate] * 0.15*(1+items) [Drop rate of cards] * 2*moxie [card gain] > moxie

At 150 moxie, this formula says you need at least +275% items to skip curtains, at +50ML. +257% at +100ML.
At 100 moxie, +246% / +50ML, +220% / +100ML.

This seems rather consistent, BUT doesn't take into account the "1 dance card / 3 combats" maximum. With mathilda every 4 turns and olfaction, you need :

0.77 * 0.15*(1+x) * 0.75 > 0.33
x> 0.33 / (0.77*0.15*0.75) - 1
x> 2.81
+281% items to get a dance card in 3 turns on average. You'd then need +42ML to make skipping curtains worth it at 150 moxie, no +ML at all at 100 moxie.

alacrity wrote: The decision to take or skip a Curtains adventure should be based on the number of dance cards you have, and the odds that you'll run out before picking up another one if you don't skip a Curtains now.

I don't think we'll ever find a better method.

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Post by alacrity » Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:47 pm

Oops, I forgot to mention something that I think affects your calculations: 2 Curtains is almost the same as a waltzer dropping a dance card and using it right away. Both take 2 turns, both give 2x mainstat substat points. Waltzer gives about 15-16 additional mainstat substat points (MCD@10=15, with Antiphon=16).

I'm not sure what the failure rate of Olfaction is on average, but even with 100% drop rate on dance cards, it doesn't seem like you should ever skip Curtains adventures if you're using the dance cards now, and probably not even if you're saving them up to use them later.

Or am I missing something obvious?

Things might be different in softcore, where you can easily squeeze even more stats out of a combat and get much higher item drop bonuses, but it doesn't seem like in Hardcore you should ever skip a Curtains adventure.

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Post by TeKRunneR » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:44 am

alacrity wrote:Or am I missing something obvious?

Things might be different in softcore, where you can easily squeeze even more stats out of a combat and get much higher item drop bonuses, but it doesn't seem like in Hardcore you should ever skip a Curtains adventure.

You're not missing anything. It's the substats from the fight that can make the difference. However your post made me realize my previous formula is missing something. Namely, the fact that mathilda takes a turn.

New suggested formula :
(110+ML)/8 [combat moxie] + 0.77 [waltzer rate] * 0.15*(1+items) [Drop rate of cards] * 2/2*moxie [card gain spread over this turns and Mathilda] > moxie

And with that formula the number become pretty big and skipping curtains is pretty much never going to be worth it, HC, SC or aftercore.

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QuantumNightmare
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Post by QuantumNightmare » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:54 pm

There was a silly divide by zero bug in the ballroom, that I fixed. The sheet might work in non-excel programs now, but I haven't tested it.

Also, I changed the minimum # of combats between dance cards to 3, no longer rounding. And curtains are now only skipped if you're not moxie class, no use running all those calculations.

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ElroyJetson
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Post by ElroyJetson » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:07 pm

I've been using this spreadsheet for months, but don't think I've posted here yet. Thanks, quantumnightmare, for such an excellent tool!

I have one question, though. Maybe I'm missing something, but why does the sign gym have a use/don't use +ML indicator? Why would +ML have any effect on the gains from the sign gym?

-Elroy

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QuantumNightmare
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Post by QuantumNightmare » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:18 pm

No reason at all. I got rid of that useless +ML indicator on the sign gym, and added the hobo monkey and hound dog while I was at it.

And you're welcome!

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DiscoNeckTed
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Post by DiscoNeckTed » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:50 pm

The new link doesn't allow me to load the spreadsheet without downloading it. Is it possible to host this on a mirror that can be accessed from any computer?
Thanks,
Ted
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QuantumNightmare
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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:52 pm

The PLD was added as a leveling zone, assuming it is set up beforehand.

DNT, are you still having problems running the sheet?

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Post by DiscoNeckTed » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:39 pm

QuantumNightmare wrote:DNT, are you still having problems running the sheet?


It still requires a download..that I don't always have administrative rights to perform.
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QuantumNightmare
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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:29 pm

I added a new "pixie" tab to the sheet. This tab compares statgains per turn of using the pixie and volleyball. Pixie stats are (absinthe stats) / (turns spent farming absinthe + turns spent using absinthe). This value changes as you farm more absinthe, since the time spent farming increases. The table shows (pixie stats) - (volleyball stats), and a positive value means you should continue farming absinthe for stats instead of switching to a volleyball.

NOTE: This doesn't take into account that you now have 2.5 or 4.5 turns of powerleveling available, while using the volleyball.

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Post by TeKRunneR » Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:21 am

QuantumNightmare wrote:NOTE: This doesn't take into account that you now have 2.5 or 4.5 turns of powerleveling available, while using the volleyball.

I'd just like to point out that if you do take this into account numbers become a lot better for the volleys. During the discussion in /hardcore that had QN do these calculations, Booyah Cookie said this doesn't really matter if you do your powerlevelling all at once (like on a HCNP 4-dayer). I didn't really understand his rationale (maybe because I haven't done a 4-dayer?), but what this all tells me is that the shaman is still optimal in a good deal of cases.

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QuantumNightmare
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Post by QuantumNightmare » Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:56 am

The current version of the sheet does calculate the other 2.5 and 4.5 turns of powerleveling, and you can see that volleys are quite a bit better. I'm surprised!

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Post by NardoLoopa » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:31 pm

QN, don't suppose you could add a generic "scaling monsters" section -- maybe with a selectable cap level.
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ElroyJetson
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Post by ElroyJetson » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:11 pm

Hmmm... looks like something is broken with the Ballroom calculations on the latest version of the spreadsheet. All of the fields in the Ballroom section of the Results sheet are showing as "#DIV/0" and several of the items in the Ballroom column on the Calculations sheet are as well.

This is on the spreadsheet dated January 29, 2009 on the Results sheet. I'm running Excel 2003 on Windows 2000, and have enabled Iteration on the Options/Calculations dialog. Iteration is set to a max of 100, with a max change of 0.001.

Any thoughts?

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QuantumNightmare
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Post by QuantumNightmare » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:07 pm

Sorry about that, should be fixed.

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ElroyJetson
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Post by ElroyJetson » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:36 pm

Wow! That was fast. The new one looks good.

Thanks!

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ElroyJetson
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Post by ElroyJetson » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:49 pm

The highlighted cells don't correspond to the areas with the highest stat gain. Using the data from my current ascension, the Bedroom's Myst gain is highlighted, even though the PLD, both Roaches, and both Absinthes have higher Myst stat gains. What does the highlighting signify?

On another topic, why does the note "Don't use +ML" appear above the Bombed Frats section.

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:59 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:The highlighted cells don't correspond to the areas with the highest stat gain. Using the data from my current ascension, the Bedroom's Myst gain is highlighted, even though the PLD, both Roaches, and both Absinthes have higher Myst stat gains. What does the highlighting signify?

On another topic, why does the note "Don't use +ML" appear above the Bombed Frats section.

PLD, Roachforms, and Absinthe are all limited use, so they never get highlighted. The highlighting goes on the best normal zone, so that part is working correctly.

The Don't use +ML note probably never belonged there and most definitely doesn't belong there now. I'm pretty sure it doesn't affect the calculations at all (I think I saw the same thing for the Bedroom at one point, but it was just used for text and not for calculations), and it can be ignored.
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