The disgorging mechanic of the slimeling (5M Spading Bounty)

This is where you spade, shovel and sickle. Or is it reap?
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Ekeinos
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The disgorging mechanic of the slimeling (5M Spading Bounty)

Post by Ekeinos » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:35 am

The past few weeks I have been bugged a lot by the Slimeling page of the wiki about the disgorging mechanic and got particularly agitated when I saw that people are already quoting it as truth (goblin learning pill all over again??). Of course, adding a "needs more spading tag" wasn't met as a hint for... more spading as I meant, but rather was reverted repeatedly with requests to say how the current conjecture is wrong. Currently, the page conjectures (asserts rather) that the disgorging mechanic works as follows:

- Drop rates are modified by a number f(n) where n is the number of equipment pieces the monster can drop.
- The pickpocket mechanic is applied to the modified drop rates.

Spading efforts so far seem to have taken this theory for granted and simply running several hundred turns on a single monster to determine the values of the hypothetical function f, without any effort to test the theory on anything else.

So, here's the challenge:
Let's fix the wiki!
I'm offering a bounty of 5 million to the person/people who will spade the disgorging mechanic. This is mostly a symbolic prize, because although it would be semi-decent if it went to one person, it will most likely go to several, as this would probably be a collaborative effort (note that the decision how to distribute the prize stays entirely with me and my whims. Although I'm a man who appreciates beauty more than mechanical efficiency, even large data collections without analysis or disproving of others' theories will be appreciated).

The final goal, of course, is an elegant theory about how the disgorging works, backed with considerable adventuring data. I'll just repeat my warning here, that what I consider 'elegant' and 'considerable' and such, depends solely on my taste, and that the prize should really be considered symbolic.

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stupac2
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Post by stupac2 » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:54 am

I'm in aftercore for a while after that brutal ascension, I was going to get extinctionist but may as well do this. The problem is that I'm just not much of a spade, so I don't have any really good ideas about how to do it other than "take lots of data and look for patterns". So this leads me to ask:

*Where is the best location to test this? My initial thought was the castle, but sniffing black knights might be better (four drops is pretty helpful for spading increased odds, but if we want to know how it depends on the items' native drop rates or on multiple pieces I don't think that's enough). Plus 100% combat makes things easier. Where else should I test?

*How do people take data like this? I'd really prefer not to do it by hand, but I don't know if I can use mafia. I've never even had the slimeling disgorge something, so I don't know if it logs and can't check. Right now I'm thinking doing it by hand is easier, unless I can take data and hand it off to someone who already has parsing scripts set up.

*Did you post this anywhere else? If we're going to collaborate might need to get in touch with them. It would be silly do use turns doing the same things when we could investigate the problem in different ways, which will be more helpful overall.

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Fred Nefler
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Re: The disgorging mechanic of the slimeling (5M Spading Bou

Post by Fred Nefler » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:14 pm

The following is my own personal opinion towards the manner Ekeinos has attempted to broach this subject here and on the wiki. Some alliance members actually like Ekeinos.

Edit: I've now sanitized it a bit for our more easily upset readers.

Ekeinos wrote:Of course, adding a "needs more spading tag" wasn't met as a hint for... more spading as I meant, but rather was reverted repeatedly with requests to say how the current conjecture is wrong.
Oh, heavens forbid we should actually require you to SUPPORT YOUR FRIGGIN' CLAIMS. With something other than waving your ding-a-ling around. Jesus christ, are you seriously this dense? What world do you live in where "this is wrong! lulz" is actually considered a valid entry for discourse? You have insinuated there are demonstrable errors. Demonstrate them!
Ekeinos wrote:without any effort to test the theory on anything else.
Propose an alternative hypothesis. I proposed a hypothesis after collecting observations (along with GoldS), then we ran more observations, and things fit. Your aggravating, self-serving attempts to encourage what you think is "science" are, as they say, a bunch of sound and fury, signifying nothing, unless you actually try to be a reasonable participant. If you believe there is something missing in the analysis (I intentionally left out CI's on the talk page since most people wouldn't know what the fuck they are, and those that would can do the analysis on their own easily enough), or think the data doesn't actually fit my hypothesis, then try being CONSTRUCTIVE about the matter. Or just continue to be a dong-waving jackanape and I'll go back to ignoring you for it. That seems to float your boat better so far.

You don't have to tell us the actual code for the mechanic--I know you can't anyway--but when you say you can find something that is wrong you can say that. Unless you care to whip out your NDA that says you can't even point out things that (you suggest) people can notice without dev knowledge.

So, here's the challenge:
Let's fix Ekeinos' brain!
Last edited by Fred Nefler on Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DarthDud
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Post by DarthDud » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:07 pm

Now, I love Ekeinos as much as any other straight non-ginger can, but I have to say, <3 Nefler's post. OMG amazing.

[Obligatory AFH flaming]But you should realize by now, Ekeinos, that not everyone can be as good of a spader as me. If pickpocket were spaded by AFH they'd probably just have some integral formula! It takes awesomeness to determine underlying, simple mechanisms. They do not have the awesomeness. Except Fred Nefler.[/Obligatory AFH flaming]

kevbob
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Post by kevbob » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:57 pm

you know, back in the old days, instead of a member of /dev saying "hey, you all are wrong about this mechanic" like ekeinos just said, or as hellion points out here and there,

we got either

a) complete silence,
no feedback whatsoever. we operated in a fucking vacuum where our wrongness was never known.


b) misinformation or outright lies (hi bashy, you fat lying fucker),


or c) trickled down 2nd hand info that leaked out from the "cool kids" via lounge.
which, you can imagine how fucking great it is to play banana-phone with morons about game mechanics. "i hearded it make you more moxie lol!" "how so?" "it's magic!"


it's a rare kol'er who blindly hates the HODs more than me,
but fred, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face,
and possibly other people's nose as well.

lordhades15
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Post by lordhades15 » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:22 pm

Disclaimer: The views of Fred Nefler do not represent the views of AFH or AFHk as a whole, or any other members besides Fred Nefler.

If there is any confusion as to the standard forum rules, please see this link: http://www.alliancefromhell.com/viewtopic.php?t=118

Particularly note Rules 1 and 2.

Thanks for your understanding, and please note that repeated offenses will not be tolerated. Back to our regularly scheduled forum post.
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Friederike
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Post by Friederike » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:58 pm

lordhades15 wrote:Disclaimer: The views of Fred Nefler do not represent the views of AFH or AFHk as a whole, or any other members besides Fred Nefler.
You know, I'm probably the only person who reads the wiki for the drama, but I've followed the discussion there, and while I assume that Ekeinos has only the best intentions, I also think that his post here is just as insulting to Fred as I assume Fred's post is (meant to be) insulting to Ekeinos.

Much as I hate to agree with kevbob, he's right, but Ekeinos could also have have been a little more diplomatic. (And I don't understand why this was posted only here and not in the HCO toolshed, too, for example.)

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Fred Nefler
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Post by Fred Nefler » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:39 pm

As far as concerns doing any actual additional spading, I think I need to get my other spading multi a slimeling. Anyone care to do a familiar run for him? He'd be covering the expenses, of course.

And it's really too bad all of the sea drops are conditional. The outpost would've been a beautiful location to work on lenseless rates, otherwise.

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Pantsless
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Re: The disgorging mechanic of the slimeling (5M Spading Bou

Post by Pantsless » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:48 am

Fred Nefler wrote: Edit: I've now sanitized it a bit for our more easily upset readers.
Wow, that was the "sanitized" version?

Remind me to never ask your help cleaning my kitchen.

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lostcalpolydude
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Post by lostcalpolydude » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:50 pm

Friederike wrote:Much as I hate to agree with kevbob, he's right, but Ekeinos could also have have been a little more diplomatic. (And I don't understand why this was posted only here and not in the HCO toolshed, too, for example.)
I have a feeling that this thread exists not to get more people spading, but to prevent the wiki reverts, which basically required a post like the one kevbob made and probably couldn't have happened on a different forum. I guess posting on the HCO forum could have helped spread the drama, though.
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Eleron
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Post by Eleron » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:22 pm

DarthDud will spade it!

Ekeinos
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Post by Ekeinos » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:57 am

Since it's been more than 1.5 month since I posted about the prize and there hasn't been much interest (is Eleron still working on this?), I'm going to withdraw the prize. The reason isn't that I don't want to give it any more, I'd just prefer to put the meat towards our joint contest prizes.

So, if someone is still working on this, please say so soon (ideally before we announce the contest). Otherwise, the bounty is no longer in effect.

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Fred Nefler
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Post by Fred Nefler » Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:04 pm

I'll work on it eventually, I'm just too busy with real-life stuff right now to work on much in the way of mechanics spading. Could be a few months away.

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Eleron
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Post by Eleron » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:55 am

I think it's pretty silly when the bounty's been pretty much done and some thousand turns have been spent on disgorging.

kevbob
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Post by kevbob » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:33 am

kevbob wrote:banana-phone
banana phone? wtf is banana phone? telephone. isn't that what that kindergarden game is called?

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NardoLoopa
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Post by NardoLoopa » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:33 am

Image

Ekeinos
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Post by Ekeinos » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:29 pm

Eleron wrote:I think it's pretty silly when the bounty's been pretty much done and some thousand turns have been spent on disgorging.
Should I take this as you're still working on it? If you are (or someone else), I'm happy to leave this bounty on. I just had the impression it's a project abandoned by everyone at least at the moment.

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