Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

This is where you spade, shovel and sickle. Or is it reap?
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lotsofphil
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Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by lotsofphil » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:57 pm

Caveat: none of this is authoritative (or at least not all of it is). I am just trying to collate what I've seen on chat/in forums.

You now need 3 cheese, not 6.
You still need 3 ore.
You can do the ore and the cheese in whatever order you want (yes, so you can get milk before mining. Keep in mind 3 cheese implies only 1.5 milks expected).
Only one miner drops all the outfit, and he is a semi-rare. His drops are definitely not 100% (dgc set a floor of 35%). I bet it is the old 3% base or whatever.
The new noncombat in the mine will always give you an outfit piece that you lack.
The lame +meat noncombats are gone from the mine.
Clovering in the mine appears to give one of each ore every time now (10/10).
You need +5 cold resistance, not the old value of +1.
You need to kill 3 yetis at the peak. Runaways don't appear to help.
You need to learn how to climb the peak. This is the most ambiguous part.
Combat rate in mine is 90% (data). However, if you don't see a noncom for ~10 turns, one (any one) will show up.

You can wear the eXtreme Cold Weather gear outfit and get 3 noncombats to learn tricks.
You can kill 3 ninja assassins to get ninja rope, carabiner and crampons. It looks like +combat helps find them.

Ninja assassins are weird. Multiple people (including me) have been able to get them 100% of the time by running +5% combat. But multiple people (including me) have not been able to do that. It may be that the encounter rate rises as turns spent in zone increases. The only rock solid data point I have from a fresh ascension is this:
+25% combat: ANNANNA
A = assassin, N = not assassin

Please feel free to edit this as it gets obsolete/proven wrong.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by sham » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:59 pm

lotsofphil wrote: You can do the ore and the cheese in whatever order you want (yes, so you can get milk before mining.
this means you don't need the miner outfit to open the goatlet, it's directly accessible.

also you can olfact the assassins, it'd be interesting to see if they appear whilst on the trail even with +NC.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by thacon » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:31 pm

29 turns on the trail with -5% combat and 10 turns on the trail with +0% combat and I didn't see a single assassin.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by sham » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:47 pm

thacon wrote:29 turns on the trail with -5% combat and 10 turns on the trail with +0% combat and I didn't see a single assassin.
so +combat is really a necessary condition.
what I don't understand is why it becomes a 100% encounter rate after a certain number of turns have been spend in the area (if you have +combat).

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by top1214 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:23 pm

sham wrote:
thacon wrote:29 turns on the trail with -5% combat and 10 turns on the trail with +0% combat and I didn't see a single assassin.
so +combat is really a necessary condition.
what I don't understand is why it becomes a 100% encounter rate after a certain number of turns have been spend in the area (if you have +combat).
Jick has been introducing ceilings into every quest revamp thus far. Why should this be different?

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by lightwolf » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:26 pm

I got a lot of things in my head, so can't really sort them all out... which is to say I have no idea if these ideas are actually worth considering or not but...

One option to get the mining outfit is to use the semi rare AND a yellow ray. Another to go with the pirates method of getting two non-combats then pulling the third piece. but...

Since you don't need the mining outfit to open the goats anymore, that means you could just pull the three ore and avoid all of those turns again.

Or for HC (or SC), you could also potentially fax a Mountain man (assuming they are faxable... maybe if you puttied one while Boris, then switched it to a fax machine out of ronin or once you went back to a class) and arrow it to get the ore that way in 3 turns.

So...
x turns to get the Mining outfit the slow way, then x turns to mine
y turns to non-combat the first two pieces, then pull the third
Semi rare + Yellow ray to get the out fit, then x turns to mine
Fax / Arrow a mountain man, and the three fights to get the ore
3 pulls for ore



In other news... In Boris one time, I forgot to start the Clancy quest and spent 7-8 turns in the bar brawl. Once i did pick up the quest, I got clancy's level up on the very next turn there instead of having to wait 6.

If Assassins are turn conditional, it may be that people spent time in the Ninja lair before hand, then when they suddenly turned on the conditional (+combat) the assassins showed up right away. That is if they are coded to show up only after x/y/z or every x fights have been spent in that zone...

At least that is one possible assumption.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by thacon » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:39 pm

There's also the option to clover for ore and skip the mining outfit all together. (Or clover for 1 or 2 ores)

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by lotsofphil » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:50 pm

@Lightwolf: mountain man has been in faxbot for ages. How do you think the drop rates got spaded? :)
top1214 wrote:
sham wrote:
thacon wrote:29 turns on the trail with -5% combat and 10 turns on the trail with +0% combat and I didn't see a single assassin.
so +combat is really a necessary condition.
what I don't understand is why it becomes a 100% encounter rate after a certain number of turns have been spend in the area (if you have +combat).
Jick has been introducing ceilings into every quest revamp thus far. Why should this be different?
The ceiling doesn't appear to exist if you run -combat. If there is a ceiling, I had hit it, then switched to -5% combat, 0/3. Then to +5% and 25/25 or something.

I agree with the idea of a ceiling. But a ceiling with a combat modifier requirement is weird. Can you run -combat and never see the liver sidequest bosses?

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Mai » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:22 pm

On multi with 15% +com:

NAN(NNNN)ANNNNNNA

The ones in parenthesis I used runaways on, because I was curious what would happen.

Multi had already killed the peak boss. Twice.

Edit: the items aren't quest items but the assassins don't drop anything again, apparently. Not sure if relevant, just fyi.
Editedit: I kept adventuring after the items were gotten, and encountered ninjassassins in greater and greater frequency, as my comabt+ dropped. Related to # of turns in zone? After about 20 or so turns, but at +5%, I got all 3 in 4 turns.
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by BC_Goldman » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:48 pm

Can you kill it multiple times per ascension and does it count as a boss for the PvP stat?

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Mai » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:51 pm

The boss I killed twice because of the bugged implementation. I think it does count as a PvP boss, but afaik it's not repeatable more than once, naturally.
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by sham » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:21 am

so the encounter rate doesn't reset at rollover and it seems it's increasing up to 100% with turns spent in the zone. runaways seems to work (ie. help increasing the encounter rate), going to check that today with my main.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by sham » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:47 am

so as expected you can increase the encounter rate by using free runaways in the ninja lair. the more turns you spend (or free runaways you use), the more likely you are to get an Assassin.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by FufuBunnySlayer » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:44 am

Code: Select all

+com          #assassins/turns spent        approx. rate
-----------------------------------------------------------------
5%                    67/100                    0.67
10%                   94/100                    0.94
15%                   99/100                    0.99
20%                   89/106                    0.84
25%                   75/100                    0.75
So it doesn't really look like it's affected by additional +com, at least not in any recognizable relationship. I think there is just a flat rate after you start running +com. And that flat rate is not affected by additional +com, but by # of adventures spent in the ninja zone.

The idea that the assassins become more common the more turns are spent in the area has merit. The data for 15% +coms was conducted on the same character that did the 25% +coms, and done directly after. (First 100 turns at 25%, second 100 turns at 15%.) I don't know if this is indicative of that or just a fluke. The data points for 10% and 20% were conducted on two different characters.

The 10% data point is courtesy of Maia. Also thanks go to her for letting me run one of her multis for testing!
Last edited by FufuBunnySlayer on Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:10 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Mai » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:46 am

On Mai at +15% (couldn't do 100 turns): NNNNNNNA(beaten)ANANA

Lolwut. Parsing more data at the mo.

Edit: 10%: 94/100, on the same account from viewtopic.php?p=74994#p74994
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Verdigris97 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:24 am

I know you guys are spading technical stuffs, and I don't want to interrupt that, but is it still the case that getting the ore-mining adventure(s) is not guaranteed, even if you are wearing the mining outfit?

About 30 minutes after the revamp I put on the mining gear and it took me 3 adventures (2 combats and a noncombat) before the ore-mining page showed up.

Was this just a bug, or is mining now 'risky'? (Or is there a floor of, say, three adventures before you can find the orebody?)

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Draco Cracona » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:26 am

Verdigris97 wrote:I know you guys are spading technical stuffs, and I don't want to interrupt that, but is it still the case that getting the ore-mining adventure(s) is not guaranteed, even if you are wearing the mining outfit?

About 30 minutes after the revamp I put on the mining gear and it took me 3 adventures (2 combats and a noncombat) before the ore-mining page showed up.

Was this just a bug, or is mining now 'risky'? (Or is there a floor of, say, three adventures before you can find the orebody?)
I used my free mines just fine yesterday... may have been a bit dodgy at first?

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by sham » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:43 am

no problem for me neither, verd.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by lostcalpolydude » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:09 am

Verdigris97 wrote:I know you guys are spading technical stuffs, and I don't want to interrupt that, but is it still the case that getting the ore-mining adventure(s) is not guaranteed, even if you are wearing the mining outfit?

About 30 minutes after the revamp I put on the mining gear and it took me 3 adventures (2 combats and a noncombat) before the ore-mining page showed up.

Was this just a bug, or is mining now 'risky'? (Or is there a floor of, say, three adventures before you can find the orebody?)
I'm guessing you used chat or mafia to switch your gear, then clicked again to adventure at the mine, and maybe the new zone doesn't redirect you to mining when you have the outfit on. Just a guess though.
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by NightBird » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:54 am

+15% (ballroom song not set), 0 turns spent in lair before that, 0 free runaways used:

NA(olfaction used)NNNNNANA

Looks like olfaction isn't effective.
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by lotsofphil » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:47 am

Looks like a 90% base combat rate in the mine.

36/101 NCs at -25%

But! There is another mechanic. You appear to only be able to go 9-11 turns between noncombats.
The noncombat that is forced can be any of them.
I got noncoms at +25%.
at 10% I got an NC after 10 turns, then another after 11
at 15%, after 10, then after 9, then 10, then 11
10,10,5 at +5%, so i think that rules out 95% base

If you want to throw turns at this, run a bunch of turns at -25% combat.
Or, try and get a non-forced NC at +10%

Also, what is the nature of the forced noncombat if you do not have the full outfit?

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by blisterguy » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:52 am

Just ran 100 turns at +15%. I'm pretty sure this account had spent one turn in the Ninja Lair prior to the revamp, but that was it. These results certainly suggest it's an increasing rate.

N = non-Assassin
A = Assassin

NNANN NNNNA ANNNA NNNNA - 5/20

ANNAN ANNNN AANNN NAAAN - 8/20

NAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA - 19/20

AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA - 20/20

AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA - 20/20

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by thacon » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:02 am

blisterguy wrote: NNANN NNNNA ANNNA NNNNA

ANNAN ANNNN AANNN NAAAN

NAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA

AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA

AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA
Batmaaan!

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by blisterguy » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:29 pm

A quick look at the Dwarves now indicates that they only drop one outfit piece each, but their drop rates might be higher than before.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Guiseppi » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:38 pm

I liked blisterguy's format, so here's some more data. I think the order they showed up in is probably as important as the percentage:

Code: Select all

NNNNNNNNNN ANNNNNNNAN ANANNNNANN ANANANANAN	 Turns 1-40: +5% combats
AAANANAAAN NAAANAAAAA NAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA	 Turns 41-80: +5% combats
AAAAA														Turns 81-85: +5% combats
After 24 assassins in a row, I dropped the +combats:

Code: Select all

NNNNNNNNNN						Turns 86-95: +0% combats
AAAAAAAAAA AAAAA				Turns 96-110: +5% combats
It looks like even after you've reached the point that you are encountering 100% or nearly so assassins, if you drop combat modifiers to 0%, you'll fight regular ninjas again. Switching on +combats immediately changed back to all-or-almost-all assassins.

One last thing I found amusing. Anyone notice they're glass-jaw ninjas? They have 1 hp.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Suendenbock » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:23 am

You find a likely starting point, strap on your ninja crampons, and affix yourself to your ninja rope with your ninja carabiner. You rub your hands together, trying to work up the nerve to begin your ascent.
Then you notice a set of crude carved stairs leading directly to the top of the peak. Those would probably be easier than all this climbing nonsense.

I wonder if there is a way to "discover" those stairs before hand so you don't have to do all the Extreme Slope or Ninja nonsense.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by lotsofphil » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:32 pm

NANNNNNNANA
+5% combat

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by thacon » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:12 pm

(NNNNNN){N}A(N)A
+5% combat

(free runaway)
{failed runaway}

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by NightBird » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:59 pm

Got assassin with +1% C (hound dog). So +5% is not a minimum requirement.
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by noway258 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:05 pm

Ran a couple of turns in the Mine.

At ~+241.80% Items:
32 Dopey dwarves dropped 11 miner's helmets.
27 Grumpy dwarves dropped 5 mattocks.
25 Sleepy dwarves dropped 10 pants.
1 Foreman dropped a pair of pants.

I also ran +10% combat during these turns and did not see a non-forced noncombat. Looks like 90% Combat rate all right.

Edit: Another data set.

44 Dopey dwarves dropped 15 helmets.
144 Grumpy dwarves dropped 47 mattocks.
57 Sleepy dwarves dropped 16 pants.

I olfacted grumpy dwarves to get a larger sample because of the suspiciously low drops yesterday. With today's data, just looks like it was some RNG swing. The base drop rate is looking like it's either 9% or 10%.

Editedit: And another.

42 Dopey dwarves dropped 15 helmets.
42 Grumpy dwarves dropped 12 mattocks.
32 Sleepy dwarves dropped 8 pants.
1 Foreman dropped nothing.
Last edited by noway258 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:37 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by blisterguy » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:13 pm

I did some +item drop percentage testing, and observed failed drops from the dwarves at around +650% and even a bit higher than that. Sorry that info isn't overly detailed, but I think it means we're looking at a lower than 15% drop rate on the outfit pieces.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Mai » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:37 pm

I was running some seriously low item, around 100-200 if that much, when I got drops on a multi. Sorry I can't give more precise #s...
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by noway258 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:13 pm

Ran 100 turns on a multi. +15% Combats.

Code: Select all

ANNNN ANNNN ANNNN NANAA

AAANN NNNAN ANNAA ANANN

ASANA AANAA AAAAA AAAAA

AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA

AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA
(S is for Semi-Rare) >.>

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by blisterguy » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:50 pm

So you got a turn one assassin? Had that multi spent any turns there this ascension before this?

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by lotsofphil » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:56 pm

I got a one-turn assassin in-run, BG.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by transplanted_entwife » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:32 pm

Wow... so there's hope, at least. I've had two miserable tries at the Level 8 quest thus far (particularly the ninja assassin portion). Maybe the third time will be the charm!
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by noway258 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:24 am

blisterguy wrote:So you got a turn one assassin? Had that multi spent any turns there this ascension before this?
Yes and no.

80 turns at +25% Combats:

Code: Select all

NNANA NNANN ANANA ANNNN

AANNN AAANS ANAAN ANANA

AANNA AAAAA NAANA AAAAA

AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA
Once again, S for Semi-Rare >.> For my bugbear spading, 6/25 Non-Assassins were Special Ops Bugbears. Sadly, this data set doesn't seem to support that more +combat helps. Then again, it's the only data set that goes until it's only assassins for +25%. We could use some more of those.

Additionally, I've added a third data set to my post above on dwarf drop rates. I think assuming the rates are equal is reasonable enough so collating the data gives 139 drops out of 445 at +241.8%. It looks like it's 9% (61.43% to 26.35% for a drop rate of 10%) but higher +items% would confirm that and rule out 10%. Then again, the difference isn't significant anyways. I'll put 9% on the wiki for now.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Mai » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:04 pm

So new update says that foreman has increased drops, but not much.

At + 120.87% item- no drops from foreman

Did get drops from other dwarves, though.
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by blisterguy » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:23 pm

I did 8 combats against the Dwarf Foreman last night at +233% to +242% items and did not miss a drop. I'll do 8 more tonight to test further, but my inclination is to believe the drops are 30% at this stage.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by FufuBunnySlayer » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:30 pm

That would be very convenient...
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by noway258 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:39 am

Missed a foreman drop at +185.5%. Looks like it's 30%.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by lostcalpolydude » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:11 pm

Does anyone know for sure how KoL rounds that stuff? If it's a 35% drop rate, you need +185.714285(repeating)% item drop to guarantee it, which is slightly higher than what you had. I don't know if the 0.2% difference is relevant though.
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by lotsofphil » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:14 pm

Seems like, for SC, it is still a pretty useless SR. It is too late for D1 and D2 you'll have to spend turns mining.

So that leaves a fax and... I dunno about it replacing a fax. 3 ore vs. 3 blank-out is good if the outfit takes 12+ runaways. Add in some turn-dilation and maybe that's down to 9-11. Expected turns to find an adding machine is...? Would be 9 but there's delay. Heinous!

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by noway258 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Did not miss any yeti furs at +237.05%.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by lostcalpolydude » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:15 pm

lotsofphil wrote:Seems like, for SC, it is still a pretty useless SR. It is too late for D1 and D2 you'll have to spend turns mining.

So that leaves a fax and... I dunno about it replacing a fax. 3 ore vs. 3 blank-out is good if the outfit takes 12+ runaways. Add in some turn-dilation and maybe that's down to 9-11. Expected turns to find an adding machine is...? Would be 9 but there's delay. Heinous!
There's also the queue, which happens to be filled by the time delay is done. If the queue has 4 unique monsters, then it's 6 turns on average after delay (for 11 turns total). Figuring out the average queue state seems complicated.
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by blisterguy » Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:46 am

noway258 wrote:Missed a foreman drop at +185.5%. Looks like it's 30%.
I'm pretty certain it's 30% now.

23 combats at mostly between 233% and 236%, with one or two up near 242% with no missed item drops.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by top1214 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:50 pm

lostcalpolydude wrote:Does anyone know for sure how KoL rounds that stuff? If it's a 35% drop rate, you need +185.714285(repeating)% item drop to guarantee it, which is slightly higher than what you had. I don't know if the 0.2% difference is relevant though.
I missed a F'c'le drop that proxy told me was a 99.74% drop.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by FufuBunnySlayer » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:57 pm

lotsofphil wrote:Seems like, for SC, it is still a pretty useless SR. It is too late for D1 and D2 you'll have to spend turns mining.

So that leaves a fax and... I dunno about it replacing a fax. 3 ore vs. 3 blank-out is good if the outfit takes 12+ runaways. Add in some turn-dilation and maybe that's down to 9-11. Expected turns to find an adding machine is...? Would be 9 but there's delay. Heinous!
Assuming that your first fax d1 is a baa'baa'bu'ran, all this costs you is KGE store access, which is mainly two runaways plus some +item and some +stats, which is less than half a pull, so like 1 turn, maybe? Also seltzer for you people who like DB. I think that trade-off is worth it, but I have not mathed it out completely (and nor do I plan to).

The longer d1 kinda sucks though (arrowing on turn 70-80), because turngen d1 is so low. 155 turngen d1 is doable without changing diet, but it cuts it close.
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electric_bolter
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by electric_bolter » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:26 pm

On the other side of the mountain:
First Run +5% NC HCNP AT 15lb fancypants with mariachi pants
12 turns to get the outfit
9 turns to get to the peak

Second Run HC AoB running clacy with sackbutt
No + NC
17 turns to get the outfit
13 turns to get to the peak.

So I would say +NC with +items is the way to run the slope.

FufuBunnySlayer
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by FufuBunnySlayer » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:40 pm

Beeg's theory that the assassins are superlikelies is correct.

Ran 50 turns to get the zone to 100% assassins. Then took out a goth kid (0 fights today). Spent 21 turns, looking for a goth fight. All assassins. If the chance of the first goth fight is 50%, the chance of the assassins not being superlikelies is less than 0.0005%.
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blisterguy
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by blisterguy » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:28 pm

The question now is does the amount of +combat help? or is it just anything about +1%?

bennieloohoo
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by bennieloohoo » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:51 am

Jick made a post in GD that strongly implied more +combat should help the assassins show up faster. Considering the source, I'd put... 70% odds on that being the case? :P

ETA: Here is the post http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/vb/ ... tcount=324

electric_bolter
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by electric_bolter » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:45 pm

I just had a 12 turn complete slope running +10% NC. Ninja's faster? Maybe not. I didn't use the swimming pool buff for this as I used it for the crypt.

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Guiseppi
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Guiseppi » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:41 am

From one of Jick's posts, he made it pretty clear that the issue is not that the ninjas take too long to show up, but rather that the snowboarding option is faster than he'd expected. I fear that bringing this any more to his attention will cause him to drop the non-combat rates, or item drop rates, or both, on the snowboarding side. To get things more in line with what he'd wanted. I think the ninjas were a great idea that didn't pan out so well in execution. Move along.

Although they might still be better in some circumstances. I have no idea what SC does with all their free runaways and putty. I haven't delved too deeply into this either, but at first glance fax+arrow on assassins could be worth it in HCO.

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top1214
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by top1214 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:08 pm

Guiseppi wrote:From one of Jick's posts, he made it pretty clear that the issue is not that the ninjas take too long to show up, but rather that the snowboarding option is faster than he'd expected. I fear that bringing this any more to his attention will cause him to drop the non-combat rates, or item drop rates, or both, on the snowboarding side. To get things more in line with what he'd wanted. I think the ninjas were a great idea that didn't pan out so well in execution. Move along.

Although they might still be better in some circumstances. I have no idea what SC does with all their free runaways and putty. I haven't delved too deeply into this either, but at first glance fax+arrow on assassins could be worth it in HCO.
At the very least, I like using an arrow in pathed.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Suendenbock » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:51 pm

In a 3 day run it is very simple to just pull the rope, crampons, and carabiner, since they are not quest items.

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Guiseppi
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Guiseppi » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:18 pm

So we were discussing in /clan yesterday whether the amount of +combats you're running makes a difference or not. I'm going to do the ninjas in aftercore for a while, running exactly +1% combats each time, and post the results here. If we can get some data at +25% combats and compare the two, it should become apparently relatively quickly whether or not the amount of +combat actually matters.

Using n for normal snowmen and A for assassins. And x is a semi-rare that popped up in the middle.

Code: Select all

nnnnnAnnAn AnAAAnnnAn AAnnAnAnnn AnAnnnnAnn nAAnAnAAAA AAAAAnAAAA AAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA     Run 1
nnnnnnAnnn AnnnAnnnnn AAAAAnnnnn AnnnnnAAAA AAAnAAAAAn AAAxAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA     Run 2
nnnAnnAnnn nnnnAnAnnn nAnnnAAnnA AAAnnnAAAA AAAAxnAAnA AAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA     Run 3
nnnnnnnnnn AnnnnAnAnn AAnnAnnnnn AnAAnAAAAA AnAAnnAnnn AAnAAAAAAA nAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA     Run 4
nnAnnnnnnn AAnnnnnnAA AnnnnAAnnn AAnAnnnnAA AAAAAnnnAA AnAAnAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA     Run 5
I stop after 80 turns because it's looking like all assassins, all the time.
Last edited by Guiseppi on Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:13 am, edited 6 times in total.

blisterguy
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by blisterguy » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:19 am

The problem is that the more turns you spend in the zone, the more likely they become (as long as you're running +combat). This means that turns spent tomorrow aren't comparable to turns spent today or yesterday. Your first 10 turns in the zone are only comparable to the first 10 turns of your previous run, and so on.

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Guiseppi
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Guiseppi » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:52 am

Right, this is why I'm going to do it across multiple runs. I'll be honest, I was surprised to get the first one as fast as I did. If the current theory is true and the amount of +combats affects how quickly they show up, I would have expected the first one to take much longer than it did. But this run could have just been freaky RNG. So I'm going to do this a bunch of times. If the theory is correct, then I would expect -- even given increasing chances -- that the assassins begin to show up considerably later at +1% combats than they would at +25% combats. That's what we're trying to confirm.

I'm also spending enough turns in the zone to reach the point where I'm getting 100% assassins. Later on if we try to determine the actual rate at which likelihood increases, I figured it would be good to have that data available.

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Whym » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:49 pm

Talked about this with Gui earlier today and said I'd chip in.

using the same format, at 25% +combat

Code: Select all

AnnnnnnnnA AAnnAnnnnn AAnnnAnAAn xnnAAAAnAA AnnAnAAnAA AAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA
  Run 1
xnnnnnnnnnA AnnnnAnnnn AnnAAnnnAA AAAAAAAAAA AnAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA
  Run 2
I will add in additional runs as I get them.
Last edited by Whym on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Guiseppi
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Guiseppi » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:17 pm

Woo! Thanks, Whym!

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Pewt
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Pewt » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:54 pm

25% combat

Code: Select all

nAnnnnnnnn AAnnnnnAAA AAAnAnAAAn AnAAAAAAAn AAAAAnnAAA AAAAAAAAAA

Whym
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Whym » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:13 am

Whym wrote:Talked about this with Gui earlier today and said I'd chip in.

using the same format, at 25% +combat

Code: Select all

AnnnnnnnnA AAnnAnnnnn AAnnnAnAAn xnnAAAAnAA AnnAnAAnAA AAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA
  Run 1
xnnnnnnnnnA AnnnnAnnnn AnnAAnnnAA AAAAAAAAAA AnAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA
  Run 2
nnnnnnAnAA xnAnAAnnnA AnnnnnAAAn AnnnAnAAAA nAAAnAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA
  Run 3
nnnxAnnnnn AAnAAnnnnn  AAnnAAnnAn AAAnAnnnnn AAAAAAAAAA AAAAnAAAAA AAAAAAAAAA
  Run 4
I will add in additional runs as I get them.

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lostcalpolydude
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by lostcalpolydude » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:22 am

Picked up a sample from this run. I started at +20% combat.
nnnnnnAnnn AnAnnnnnAn AAnnnnnnnA AnAAAAA

Since I was getting consistent assassins, I switched to +5% combat (same ascension).
nnAnAAnAAA AAA
bmaher: Softcore character
lostcalpolydude: Hardcore character (abandoned)

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ungawa
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by ungawa » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:22 am

There was talk today in chat about choosing assassin vs slope if you have to find all 3 assassins without help from a fax or copy. AntiPata pointed out the wiki's 60% combat rate for the slope hadn't been updated since the revamp.

After some spading, it looks to me like the zone is 95% combat, and the game will force one of the four outfit noncombats if you go 7 slope combats without a noncombat. (added to the kol spading forum here)

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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by maddsurgeon » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:45 pm

Thanks for putting the time into that, Ungawa.
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Pewt
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Pewt » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:06 am

25% combat again:

Code: Select all

nSnAnnnnAn AnAnnnnAnn AnnnAAAAnA AAnAAAAAnn nAAAAAnAAn AAnAAAAAAA
The S is a semirare.

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lotsofphil
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by lotsofphil » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:26 pm

5% combat:

Code: Select all

AnnnnnnnnAAAAnnnnAnAAnAnnAnnnAAAAAAAAAnAAAnnAnAAAAAAnnAAAnA

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NotJim
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by NotJim » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:53 am

+10%:

Code: Select all

nnnnnAAnnAAnnnnnnnnAAnnnAnAnnnAAAnAAAnAAAnAAnAAAAA
nnnnnnnnnnAAnnnA
Second one unfinished.

Draco Cracona
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Re: Preliminary L8 Quest Knowledge

Post by Draco Cracona » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:11 am

I'm looking at this data, and I'm wondering if anyone's seen any failures for assassins at +25% combat after 50 or even 60 turns? I'm seeing failures there for the +1% data.

I'll have a go and try to come up with a sane model at some point over the next week or so... thinking something like 15% for the first 10 turns, increased by 15% for each subsequent set of 10, or something, that gets some bonus for +combat magnitude such that +25% caps it at 50, but it's still about a 10-20% chance for the first 10 turns. This puts the 1% cap at 80 turns, which seems to fit. Thoughts? Maybe add in more of the combat modifiers per 'level, for example (15%+combat freq/5)*(turns in zone)/10? Does this sound utterly crazy?

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