Friars Noncombat Rate

This is where you spade, shovel and sickle. Or is it reap?
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Alrik
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Friars Noncombat Rate

Post by Alrik » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:47 am

We were having a discussion in /clan about the expected time to complete the friar's quest, and Flolle et al are interested in spading out the noncombat ratet. Please post your results for the friars in this format:

elbow: <total turns>, <number of noncombats, including quest item>, <-combat modifier>
neck: <total turns>, <number of noncombats, including quest item>, <-combat modifier>
heart: <total turns>, <number of noncombats, including quest item>, <-combat modifier>

Thanks!

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Post by TheTravelingRetard » Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:15 am

Forgive me if format is off, not sure if the "<>" are needed

On KoLA (#1430585)- 3rd run ever

Elbow: 9, 1, -5% (RoC)
Neck: 7, 3, -5% (RoC)
Heart: 7, 1, -5% (RoC)
+15 to Monster Level from sickle

Shit you not.


Run prior:

Elbow: 12, 2, -5% (RoC)
Neck: 3, 1, -5%(RoC)
Heart: 10, 1, -5%(RoC)
+15 to ML from sickle
+15 to ML from CARNIVORE Button

EDIT to include +ML.
Last edited by TheTravelingRetard on Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alrik
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Post by Alrik » Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:11 pm

TheTravelingRetard wrote:Forgive me if format is off, not sure if the "<>" are needed

No, that's perfect. Thank you!

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:14 pm

Make sure you factor in +ML when telling us how much combat modifiers are used.

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Post by TheTravelingRetard » Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:58 pm

QuantumNightmare wrote:Make sure you factor in +ML when telling us how much combat modifiers are used.

Heh, forgot about that. :(
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Post by Flolle » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:53 pm

Only two runthroughs because the others were done so long ago that I can't remember what +ML I had been running in them. And I don't want to read every single line of the mafia log just to make sure that Ur-Kel wasn't running.


Elbow: 7, 3, 0%
Neck: 7, 1, 0%
Heart: 7, 2, 0%


Elbow: 31, 5*, 0%
Neck: 4, 1, 0%
Heart: 11, 2, 0%

*The quest item appeared on the first noncombat, but I stayed there to farm hellion cubes.

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Post by Brulak » Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:59 am

elbow: 26, 7, co-15 (RoC, Smooth, Sonata)
neck: 9, 2, co-15 (RoC, Smooth, Sonata)
heart: 11, 6*, co-15 (RoC, Smooth, Sonata)

monster level was at 0. This really sucked.

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Post by Seal Lubber » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:41 am

I went the other way, using +Combats. I feel like it's pretty conclusively 15% non-combat rate in each zone, but someone will probably tell me I need more data.

Data (Just the chronological order I was doing things):
~~~~~~~~~~~
+ML=0
Neck (+15 Combats): 65 turns without any non-combats
Neck (+10 Combats): 25 turns to non-combat (Dodecagram)

Heart (+10 Combats): 13 turns to non-combat (Candles)

Elbow (+15 Combats): 45 turns without any non-combats
Elbow (+10 Combats): 32 turns to non-combat (Butterknife)
~~~~~~~~~~~

So: Since Encounter Rates are always multiples of 5, you would expect one to turn up in 20 turns. The average turns in my tests with +10 combats was 23 turns, while no non-combats turned up in 110 turns @ +15 combats.

Further: Coincidence that I got the quest items first time everytime? Might be worth looking at, since the other non-combats are pretty sucky ie. you might wait 10 turns before cranking the non-combats so you get the quest item without drowning in hot-wings. I say this because Jick started a thread about a similar mechanic in the forums a few weeks ago. Can anybody support/disprove?

*Edit for more info:
- Level 11 character
- Hippy Stench, Cantata, Monster Bait
- 0 ML
- Ballroom not unlocked
- Ring of Cold Resistance (?)

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Post by Brulak » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:09 am

dodecagramm: 12, 3, co-15 (Smooth ring of Sneakiness)
candles: 16, 3, co-15
butterknife: 26, 5, co-15

54 turns total at -15 to combats. Sucktastic!

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Post by greycat » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:36 am

elbow: 14,6,-10%
heart: 12,3,-10%
neck: 9,1,-10%

Hardcore, sauceror, Vole, radio:10, no other +ML
smooth, sonata

elbow: L Ales Ales Ninja Ales G Ninja Ales G Ninja L Ninja Ales Butterknife
heart: P Wings Arch G G P Arch G Wings P Arch Candles
neck: W P Hellion W W P Hellion P Dodeca

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Post by DarthDud » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:13 am

This is not related to the current spading.

Code: Select all

[543] Friar's Gate
Encounter: Bureaucracy of the Damned
choice.php?pwd&whichchoice=161&option=4

[543] Dire Warren
Encounter: fluffy bunny
Round 0: Disco_fish wins initiative!
Round 1: Disco_fish attacks! (auto-attack)
You gain 8 Meat
You gain 1 Strengthliness
You gain 4 Wizardliness
You gain 2 Cheek

[544] Dire Warren
Encounter: fluffy bunny
Round 0: Disco_fish wins initiative!
Round 1: Disco_fish attacks! (auto-attack)
You gain 8 Meat
You gain 3 Strongness
You gain 2 Enchantedness
You gain 2 Sarcasm

[545] Dire Warren
Encounter: fluffy bunny
Round 0: Disco_fish wins initiative!
Round 1: Disco_fish attacks! (auto-attack)
You gain 8 Meat
You gain 2 Beefiness
You gain 2 Wizardliness
You gain 3 Roguishness

[546] Dire Warren
Encounter: fluffy bunny
Round 0: Disco_fish wins initiative!
Round 1: Disco_fish attacks! (auto-attack)
You gain 9 Meat
You gain 1 Beefiness
You gain 7 Enchantedness
You gain 2 Chutzpah

[547] Dire Warren
Encounter: fluffy bunny
Round 0: Disco_fish wins initiative!
Round 1: Disco_fish attacks! (auto-attack)
You gain 8 Meat
You gain 1 Strongness
You gain 3 Magicalness
You gain 3 Cheek

[548] Dire Warren
Encounter: fluffy bunny
Round 0: Disco_fish wins initiative!
Round 1: Disco_fish attacks! (auto-attack)
You gain 8 Meat
You gain 2 Beefiness
You gain 4 Roguishness

[549] Dire Warren
Encounter: fluffy bunny
Round 0: Disco_fish wins initiative!
Round 1: Disco_fish attacks! (auto-attack)
You gain 8 Meat
You gain 1 Beefiness
You gain 2 Wizardliness
You gain 4 Sarcasm

[550] Dire Warren
Encounter: fluffy bunny
Round 0: Disco_fish wins initiative!
Round 1: Disco_fish attacks! (auto-attack)
You gain 7 Meat
You gain 3 Muscleboundness
You gain 3 Enchantedness
You gain 1 Chutzpah

[551] Dire Warren
Encounter: fluffy bunny
Round 0: Disco_fish wins initiative!
Round 1: Disco_fish attacks! (auto-attack)
You gain 7 Meat
You gain 2 Wizardliness
You gain 5 Sarcasm

[552] Dire Warren
Encounter: fluffy bunny
Round 0: Disco_fish wins initiative!
Round 1: Disco_fish attacks! (auto-attack)
You gain 8 Meat
You gain 2 Strongness
You gain 4 Smarm

[553] Friar's Gate
Encounter: W imp
Round 0: Disco_fish loses initiative!
Round 1: Disco_fish attacks!
You lose 3 hit points
Round 2: Disco_fish attacks!
Round 3: Disco_fish attacks!
Round 4: Disco_fish attacks!
Round 5: Disco_fish attacks!
Round 6: Disco_fish attacks!
Round 7: Disco_fish attacks!
You gain 30 Meat
You acquire an item:  wussiness potion
You gain 1 Strongness
You gain 8 Wizardliness
You gain 8 Sarcasm

[554] Friar's Gate
Encounter: Bureaucracy of the Damned
choice.php?pwd&whichchoice=161&option=4

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Post by KujjieKujjieKoo » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:34 am

DarthDud wrote:This is not related to the current spading.

Is this being brought up for any reason other than queue'ing the final turn in? Because otherwise that's kinda old news...

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Post by greycat » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:31 am

I always forget to record this stuff. Except today.

elbow: 6, 2, -10%
heart: 16, 4, -10%
neck: 3, 2, -10%

hardcore, smooth + sonata, radio varied from 1 to 5, no other +ML

elbow: bier G DN L L knife
heart: wings G P ARCH wings P ARCH G wings ARCH G ARCH ARCH P G candles
neck: HELLION friar dodeca

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Post by greycat » Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:29 pm

elbow: 7, 2, -10%
heart: 9, 1, -10%
neck: 6, 2, -10%

hardcore, smooth, sonata, radio on 1 the whole time, no other +ML

elbow: G L bier DN L L butterknife
heart: G P G G ARCH G G P candles
neck: HELLION friar W P HELLION dodeca

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Post by greycat » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:58 am

hardcore, seal clubber, smooth + sonata, detuned radio on 10, no other +ML

neck: 6,3,-10
elbow: 15,4,-10
heart: 16,5,-10

neck: friar W friar P HELL dodeca
elbow: bier G DN bier G bier G L G G DN L L G knife
heart: P ARCH G wings wings wings G G wings ARCH ARCH P P G G candles

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Post by Brulak » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:23 am

MCD at 11, -15 to combats (RoC, Smooth, Sonata)

elbow: N Bierdieb, C L imp, N Bierdieb, C G imp, C Demoninja, N Bierdieb, N Bierdieb, C G imp, C L imp, N Bierdieb, C Demoninja, N Bierdieb, C L imp, C G imp, butterknife (=15 turns, 8 combats)
heart: N wings, C G imp, C Archfiend, N wings, birthday candles (=5 turns, 2 combats)
neck: N friar, C P imp, C Hellion, N friar, dodecagram (=5 turns, 2 combats)

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Post by greycat » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:51 pm

bad moon, sauceror, no +ML, no +/- combats

neck: 3, 2, 0%: P friar dodeca
elbow: 12, 2, 0%: DN G G L bier L G G DN L G knife
heart: 27, 2, 0%: G G P ARCH G ARCH G P P ARCH P G G P G ARCH ARCH G P ARCH P wings P ARCH G G candles

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Post by greycat » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:34 am

hardcore, seal clubber, smooth + sonata, detuned radio on 10

neck: 8, 4, -10% (*)
heart: 7, 1, -10%
elbow: 19, 1, -10%

(*) I got the semi-rare lip balm during that section, so it was actually 9 turns total.

neck: friar lipbalm HELL P W friar P friar dodeca
heart: P ARCH ARCH ARCH G SOMEMONSTER(**) candles
elbow: G DN L L L G DN G G L G L L DN DN L L G knife

(**) Forgot to record that one. But I definitely fought something there.

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Post by Flolle » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:01 am

Darth in the newest hedwards vs all spartans thread wrote:As I mentioned, such as whatever the hell is going on in part 1 of the friars. I have it on very good authority that there's just no reasonable way to spade this. The only way is brute forcing a shitload of ascension data, which is incredibly unreasonable given that you only get one data point per run.

Intriguing. Bolded the interesting part.

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Post by DarthDud » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:06 am

[16:35] darthdud: Out of curiosity, isn't it a bit unscrupulous to get a head start on the pudding trophy due to /dev involvement?
[16:38] MoxFulder: nope :-p
[16:38] MoxFulder: You realize I'm probably the only (active) dev that doesn't actually *have* the trophy yet (and hasn't had it for months, too)?
[16:38] MoxFulder: for me, it was just convenient to eat them, after one of us found it (by testing on a devster, iirc). They give way worse returns than good food, so they (further) slowed me down, which I ...
[16:39] darthdud: OK. It's just wrong for devs to be able to get trophies ahead of everyone else due to stuff like devster testing.
[16:40] MoxFulder: appreciated out of rl time constraints. I realize I'll have the trophy earlier than non-dev people, but I haven't profitated from puddings in the mall, and am slow enough in ascending that all who
[16:40] MoxFulder: cared could overtake me in trophies, too - even when I'll add this one.
[16:40] MoxFulder: I agree with that, but didn't feel this particular one to be a big deal.
[16:40] darthdud: That's all rationalization the avoids the real problem ;)
[16:41] darthdud: Yeah I agree this particular one is not a big deal, I was actually inquiring for somebody else.
[16:42] darthdud: Still it irks me. Oh well... what do I care about this game anymore anyways? :P
[16:42] MoxFulder: I can't really speak in regard to how anyone else handled this trophy. Jick only told us not to display it as top food, which was by and large adhered to (I was sitting at 416 for a couple of month
[16:43] MoxFulder: ...s). He actually, afaik, even went ahead and removed black puddings from the random "most eaten" weird record page, which I took as tacit "ok".
[16:44] MoxFulder: As I said above, in an ideal world, this wouldn't have happened. At the same time, I do feel it's miniscule, and no big deal (at least in my case, and others have to decide for themself).
[16:45] darthdud: It's just one of those things which come across as symptoms of the disease, really, regardless of how trivial or not. Blah. But, I don't want to argue that point again, since it's fruitless
[16:46] MoxFulder: I'm not sure I'd agree with you on that larger theory (symptom of a disease)... partly because everyone has a slightly different theory on what the "disease" is, and I don't know yours :)
[16:47] darthdud: Out of curiosity, is it possible for you to test/confirm if -combat works properly in stage 1 of the friars? There are rumors of issues...
[16:49] MoxFulder: yes, I've looked into that recently. They seem to work as intended. I'm not sure you'd agree with the "intention", and I won't elaborate on whether I myself agree with that, but they seem working
[16:49] MoxFulder: as designed.
[16:50] darthdud: I take it, then, that the design is not in line with how it was formerly, though.
[16:50] MoxFulder: if "formerly" = "pre NS13", then that's correct, yes.
[16:52] darthdud: Hrm. Thanks for the info. *sets it in a file "why devs should not be on leaderboards, still."* :-P
[16:52] MoxFulder: he. Is that in the "in case dev ever get reinstated to the boards" folder? ;)
[16:53] darthdud: Well, CDM thinks that if he ever wanted to do a speed run Jick wouldn't object to him being on boards again.
[16:53] MoxFulder: that's probably correct, yes. I mean, no one has asked for ages, but I don't believe Jick would object either.
[16:54] darthdud: This all makes me very sad. Heh. Ah well, it's funny that all these former speed ascender devs aren't even interested in the speed game anymore, either.
[16:55] MoxFulder: That's a direct consequence of the hostile attitude to them.
[16:56] darthdud: I'm not hostile to them, just to the rules of the game as laid out by Jick as being corrupt ;p
[16:56] darthdud: Also, if they tried, they'd abandon the speed game again, trust me ;)
[16:56] darthdud: It's ... not fun
[16:57] MoxFulder: maybe. it doesn't matter in practise. if you know in advance that any speed record you'd get near at/would set would result just in boos and hisses instead of in praise, that's a huge discouragemen
[16:57] MoxFulder: t to even try. Which, of course, makes devsters understand the speed game less, over time, ultimately leading to bad consequences for the speedsters themself. But, meh.
[16:57] darthdud: Well, here I was thinking I wouldn't mind anymore, that maybe it could invigorate people, but then you drop these new bombshells in my lap ;)
[16:58] darthdud: Is there any really good way to spade out the changes?
[16:59] MoxFulder: he :) I think there is a real knowledge gap between dev and rest, and I fear it's not going to go away, and I think it's bigger than it was in NS11. So I support the "no leaderboards" more than I d
[16:59] MoxFulder: id in NS11, actually.
[17:00] darthdud: Yes, it is a bummer. :(
[17:00] MoxFulder: I think not. I think the only way to really "spade" out the changes is massive big, data collection. And all of it is once-per-ascension data. ...
[17:01] MoxFulder: I'd actually be interested in such an effort - there's some stuff that directly affects whether things show up or not that's kept (nearly) totally hidden from us, too, and I'd really like to know h
[17:02] MoxFulder: ...ow it works. But I don't think it's spadeable in any sensible way. And I've tried my very best, but I can't talk Jick out of it.
[17:03] darthdud: That's really too bad... it's very frustrating for seemingly most all the players who actually care enough to be bothered to be curious how it works
[17:03] darthdud: Also it makes you feel hopeless if there are hidden mechanics, that are unscruptable, but that matter
[17:03] darthdud: *inscrutable
[17:04] MoxFulder: yes, absolutely. Jick doesn't seem to get how bad the "*can't* know" is for speedsters/spades, as opposed to a mere "don't know yet".
[17:05] darthdud: I thought he was a spade at heart ;-)
[17:05] MoxFulder: if he is, I don't know what he was thinking :-p
[17:06] darthdud: Hehe. Ah well. I mean, really, none of this surprises me that much at this point.
[17:07] darthdud: I hear positive changes may be coming down the pipeline in the future... maybe in another 7 months the game'll be playable/interesting for me again. One can hope, at least.
[17:07] MoxFulder: he. "surprising you" is a tough call, though. :-p You know all this stuff way too well, and have had such a conversation numerous times. No surprise is to be expected ;)
[17:08] darthdud: Well, I had until now hoped that Jick hadn't put any unspadable things into the game like that.
[17:08] darthdud: So, it's disappointing, but you know... ;p
[17:08] MoxFulder: yes. He *does* understand some of these "hidden" things are not optimal in the sense that zones like the pirate revamp make them unneccessary. But he's not prepared to settle for something "imperfe
[17:09] MoxFulder: ...ct", but better than status quo, in the meantime.
[17:09] darthdud: What I'd be curious in seeing is more branches in your gameplay, such that the order you do things, or how you go about them, have global effects and significance
[17:10] darthdud: A lot of the NS13 changes, particularly in softcore, changed zones into little bubbles of internally optimizable-ness, but without greater significance. A series of mini-games, if you will, rather than an overarching strategy
[17:11] darthdud: Pirates are a a great example of an area with cute things you can do, but that is just completely isolated from the rest of the game in its effects, really.
[17:16] MoxFulder: all my sayings should be cautioned by the fact that I'm surprised time and again by te ingenuity of "real" spades (which I'm NOT) to find out awesome things. So maybe, I'm overly pessimistic on thi
[17:16] MoxFulder: (had a chat timeout, so apologies if you received these twice)
[17:16] MoxFulder: ... one. But I doubt it.
[17:16] MoxFulder: doesn't some of the pirate stuff interact much more with the rest of the game than most other zones? e.g. the capm caronch part (frat house/ other options)?
[17:26] darthdud: A little, yeah.
[17:26] darthdud: I like that, though the choices of things you need are a little weird :)

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Post by Flolle » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:56 am

Huh. o.O

But first, thanks for posting that! :)

This is one of those moments during which I just can't stop cursing the day Jick came up with the superlikely mechanic. He should really reconsider his use of RNG-rolls in the game instead of introducing more variations of superlikelies (conditional, counter-based or both). Seriously, what's with this fixation on a certain minimum amount of needed turns per quest-area anyway? Does he think the writing is so awesome that we should all have to see every encounter three times? :|

Nevertheless, I'd say data gathering should continue here. Maybe we'll be able to figure this mechanic out someday.

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Post by Mad Hamish » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:56 pm

Flolle wrote: Seriously, what's with this fixation on a certain minimum amount of needed turns per quest-area anyway? Does he think the writing is so awesome that we should all have to see every encounter three times? :|

This I think is the root of why NS13 is less fun. There's hardly any places where you can get awesome RNG. It was great to have 1 turn friar's branches and one turn nooks, and it felt awesome to get two immateria back to back. Sometimes you got screwed, too, but you had those good feelings to keep going. Now good is mediocre, and all you have is mediocre and screwed, and that's no fun.
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Post by Brulak » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:25 pm

Mad Hamish wrote:Now good is mediocre, and all you have is mediocre and screwed, and that's no fun.


Quite right. In fact, I am feeling the burnout. High time to do another month of lazy farming/basementing after the goat contest.

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Mechanics and stuff

Post by Brulak » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:52 am

Some random we have discussed in /clan a few minutes ago. Perhaps somebody can give more input or suggest how any of this could be tested:

Code: Select all

KujjieKujjieKoo: I half expect there are secrets available for the cyrpt and pirates that we havne't figured out yet.
KujjieKujjieKoo: And Sonofa Beach as well.
KujjieKujjieKoo: But given many of those things are once per ascension, they're a bitch to try and spade out.
...
Brulak: regaring the friars, I think there are two different, conflicting effects at work.
Brulak: something like nocombat ratio determining rate of rejection of quest adventures, meaning that running noncombats above a certain margin make the rejection so dominant your +noncombs would be useless.
KujjieKujjieKoo: the level 6 portion of friars?
Brulak: yes, that one
...
Brulak: very very hard to spade, but would explain why people in HC runs running only smooth get about as good turn # as softcore people running -15
...
Brulak: just very uncommong. Another model could be that the rejection rate of the quest adventure decreases with the # of turns spent in one area.
...
KujjieKujjieKoo: I'm wondering if there's a zonewide turncount requirement... where you have to spend 20 turns between the three zones
Brulak: sort of guaranteeing you get the quest item after 12-15 turns or so
Brulak: zonewide would be easy to detect: given you have a chance to affect results in the first subareas, you should see horrible RNG in the last area.
...
Brulak: something like 3/3/20 or so.
Brulak: those numbers would stand out in a collection of data.
...
Brulak: another theory that maybe could be verified by log-checking: is there a minimum turn threshhold (for turns played in the knob) for finding the knob lab key and meeting alarm?
Brulak: like: after finding the key, you have to play X turns in the knob before seeing Alarm
...
Brulak: just wondering because that area has been sort of "unlucky" to me since NS-13 started.
Friederike: last time i got mr. alarm on the first turn, but i think i did a lab bounty earlier.
Brulak: I have also seen first turn alarms, but cannot recall a first turn alarm when I had to backfarm the lab key in the first palce

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:56 am

-20% combat

8/3/22 turn friars

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Post by greycat » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:27 am

There is no minimum turn count for the lab key. Just yesterday, in fact, I got the lab key on my very first "turn" in the opened-up Knob. (Darkgreycat, bad moon DB, day 2.)

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Post by Brulak » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:01 pm

What I meant was not the way the key is acquired (I am aware something weird with zones and probabilites is going on there) but the amount of knob activity between finding the key, and meeting Mr. Alarm. Or in other words: is it possible to meet Mr. Alarm immediately after getting the key?

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Post by greycat » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:35 pm

There are usually 6 entire levels between the acquisition of the key, and meeting Mr. Alarm, for me. So I wouldn't know anything about that.

More data! Bad moon, disco bandit:

elbow L DN G DN L G G G G G bier G L knife
heart G G wings ARCH ARCH wings P G wings G G P ARCH G G ARCH P G candles
neck W HELL HELL P W HELL W P HELL friar HELL HELL W W P dodeca

Elbow: 14, 2, 0%
Heart: 19, 4, 0%
Neck: 16, 2, 0%

And not even a single W. STAB!

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:42 pm

Just got a turn 1 mr alarm, on my first turn spent in the laboratory.

EDIT: and a turn 1 mega-gem. I haven't fought a single scientist this run!

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Post by greycat » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:39 am

hardcore pastamance opossum

neck: H (left the zone) P W H friar H P H P W W (left zone) H H P H H ?? H W P dodeca
heart: wings P G (left zone) wings wings P FA G wings wings candles
elbow: DN G bier knife

The ?? represents something I forgot to record. A combat, but I'm not sure which. The zone went on and on and on....

neck: 21, 2, -10% (smooth + sonata + MCD 11)
heart: 11, 6, -10%
elbow: 4, 2, -10%

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Post by NotJim » Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:56 am

QuantumNightmare wrote:EDIT: and a turn 1 mega-gem. I haven't fought a single scientist this run!


Mega-gem is *always* 1 turn...

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Post by greycat » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:08 pm

casual AT (darkgreycat), smooth + sonata + ring, annoy-o-tron on 10

neck: W friar HELL P dodeca
heart: wings P G P ARCH P ARCH candles
elbow: DN bier G L butter

neck: 5, 2, -15%
heart: 8, 2, -15%
elbow: 5, 2, -15%

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Post by greycat » Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 pm

casual TT (darkgreycat)

I fucked up the first turn in the elbow (still had my ice sickle and CARNIVORE on).

Went in with smooth + sonata + fresh scent.

elbow: one turn at -9% combats (combat, DN)
elbow: and then 8 turns at -15% combats (bier DN bier G L G L knife)
You can either throw this data away or whatever....

This zone went properly:
heart: 4, 2, -15% (wings G ARCH candles)

Now I was able to equip my ring of conflict. So:
neck: 11, 4, -20% (friar P friar P HELL W HELL friar HELL P dodeca)

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Post by greycat » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:20 am

casual pastamancer (darkgreycat)
smooth, sonata, conflict, fresh scent, MCD only

elbow: 9,4,-20% (L bier G DN bier DN bier DN knife)
heart: 8,3,-20% (wings P P FA wings P G candles)
neck: 5,1,-20% (P W H W dodeca)

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Re: Mechanics and stuff

Post by NotJim » Fri May 02, 2008 2:12 am

Brulak wrote:

Code: Select all

Brulak: regaring the friars, I think there are two different, conflicting effects at work.
Brulak: something like nocombat ratio determining rate of rejection of quest adventures, meaning that running noncombats above a certain margin make the rejection so dominant your +noncombs would be useless.
KujjieKujjieKoo: the level 6 portion of friars?
Brulak: yes, that one
...
Brulak: very very hard to spade, but would explain why people in HC runs running only smooth get about as good turn # as softcore people running -15


After looking through about a hundred data points manually, I am 99% convinced that this is the case.

'Optimal' ratio is probably somewhere between 5 and 10%... ML/combats become 'useful' there, I guess.

Someone could probably try running anywhere between those amounts in the friars' and report results?

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Post by Brulak » Fri May 02, 2008 2:35 am

Thank you for reminding me of this topic once again. I originially got the idea of conflicting effects from the way +ML gear and noncombats were handled when NS 13 was started. However, this does not look too elegant and logical - not that Jick is programming things in a logical way. Need I mention turn gains from food? ;-)

I don't know where I first read about it, but obviously having a mechanic in place that puts both a floor and a ceiling on the turn count involved in many areas could also suggest something like this:

- quest adventures (friars, cyrpt, airship) are noncombats
- every time the game rolls a noncombat encounter, a second roll occurs:
- odds are p for a quest encounter and 1-p for a non-quest noncombat
- now p is not static as it was in the NS-11 times, but instead is determined by the number of turns spent in the subzone. So it could be p = 0.05 * t, with t being turns spent, giving you a very very slim chance to get a quest item on your first or second turn, and more or less guaranteeing you the quest item after a dozen turns unless you have turned off combats completely (where the hard cap on the turn # seems to come into effect).
- I also have a hunch that p is modified once more by taking the number of turns spent in the entire quest and the number of quest items already found into consideration, so that finding the last item will take comparatively longer if you were lucky and got everything else fast.

Summary:
- increasing noncombats is still helpful as it lets the game roll more often for your quest encounter, even if it only ensures you to get to roll as soon and as often after hitting the floor number as possible.
- floors/ceilings and varying odds ensure that the actual spread of turns spent is not as wide as a simple Bernoulli model would give. Like, airship now in a 30-60 range instead of 7-100 in NS-11.

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Post by NotJim » Fri May 02, 2008 3:07 am

Hmm, I still personally think that your first hypothesis matches the semi-conjecture/data analysis I've seen so far (I know, I know) and it probably fits the first castle wheel turn, as well... possibly the first library noncombat and the bedroom moxie nightstand when you first venture in there.

Maybe the one you just stated works in the cyrpt and airship...

EDIT: Sigh. Bribing a dev to leak everything seems to be the most efficient.
Last edited by NotJim on Fri May 02, 2008 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Seal Lubber » Fri May 02, 2008 4:49 am

I think something like that is happening in the Cyrpt (see some related ramblings here), but there's a couple of points of difference:
- The Cyrpt bosses aren't strictly a non-combat, since you can get them even when the non-combat rate should be zero (typically in 5-15 turns). It might be both a non-combat and a superlikely though. This contrasts with the Friar's quest items which cannot be found while running +15% combats.
-- Whatever increases the chance (if there is actually chance involved) does not use turns spent. By using green smoke bombs on combats, you can find a Cyrpt Boss without spending a turn. I think that the Cyrpt looks at combats only, with 5-15 combats being a fairly consistent figure. I don't think anybody has run that test in the Friar's.
-- I think there is a global counter as well, but I can't remember why I think that, and it's far too hard to test these things.

So I think the spirit of the mechanic might be the same between the Friar's and the Cyrpt, but there are some inconsistencies.

How do you test the theory? I guess you need to look at the probability of finding quest items/bosses on particular turn-counts:
-- But if they are non-combats, the data will be fucked with by different non-combat rates. Do we need to prove whether they are non-combats or not, or can combat modifiers be taken into account, or can a lot of people do tests with the same combat modifiers?
-- How do the regular non-combats interact with the quest encounter probability? In the Cyrpt I suspect they're ignored if you skip them, but I'm not sure about if you take the stats. Maybe in the Friar's the regular non-combats don't increase the chance of finding a quest item, which is why you can get such long streaks of hot wings while running lots of +non-combats. How can you tell either way?

This could probably be figured out with enough data, but it's really a pain in the arse to do. I've got two multis that I intended to put through the Cyrpt, but I think I've managed two trips in half a year. It's a hard thing to spend hours putting your multi through an ascension, hitting the Cyrpt and finding out absolutely nothing. I think the best option is setting up a Kingdom-wide password guessing ring to get onto a Dev account to run some decent tests, or maybe an easier thing would be to develop a Casual-at-a-Profit ascension script for low level spading multis to test the once-per-ascension zones. I don't know, maybe the best we can hope for is an empirical +ML/+non-combats turn-count comparison based on a handful of logs.

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Post by Ceirdwyn » Sat May 03, 2008 5:01 am

SC Booze Disco Bandit:

elbow: 7 combats, 5 non-combats (Smooth, Sonata, + 15 ML, MCD)
heart: 8 combats, 1 no-combat (Smooth, Sonata, MCD)
neck: 2 combats, 2 no-combats (Smooth, Sonata, MCD)

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Post by NotJim » Sun May 11, 2008 3:18 am

Dark Elbow of the Woods (11)
Dark Heart of the Woods (31)
Dark Neck of the Woods (9)

So 51-turn Friars' in total, with -15% combats.

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