AFH Presents: An Encounter Taxonomy

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AFH Presents: An Encounter Taxonomy

Post by stupac2 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:18 pm

Thanks to recent discussion in the Mechanical Transparency thread, I thought it would be a reasonable time to discuss how, exactly, KoL decides what happens when you click those adventure links. At the same time this should hopefully clear up some long-standing confusion about the encounter taxonomy (especially with regard to superlikelies). And there will be flowcharts! So let's begin!

Starting at the beginning, an encounter is what happens when you spend an adventure. It is the absolute broadest term, it's where we begin. There are many different types of encounters, and to simplify things we'll discuss them in the order in which they are checked by the game (the order of some of these things isn't known completely. We know that 1-5 happen before the rest, but not how they relate to each other thanks to their rarity. The displayed order for those is somewhat arbitrary). That is, if you qualify for one, you get it and the checking stops. If you don't, it moves to the next one. I'll also try to explain, where appropriate, how we know this order.

First: Encounter flowchart!

Second: While this applies to the majority of zones, there are few that are handled through entirely different mechanisms. Examples of these are the various mines, shoring, etc.

1) Drunken stupor: Drunken stupor works by setting your adventure zone to drunken stupor. This effectively eliminates most things further down in the taxonomy. However, before the game decides which stupor you get, it still checks the rest of the taxonomy, but they just can't be met (since most are tied to a zone). But you can get scheduled encounters that aren't tied to a zone (such as #5, wandering monsters). SSPD adventures would be either superlikelies or noncombats, depending on how they're coded they could be either (see #8 and 9 for discussion on those).

2) Hardcoded adventures: Such as the knob lab key and maybe some others. Pretty rare and exceptional.

3) Wandering monsters: These are the monsters that you get on regular intervals during special holidays/events, such as FoB, El Dia, and during the sand event. Not tied to any zone. Will not show up if your semirare counter is expired, however it is still possible to override the semirare with anything else in the chain (such as a clover adventure).

4) Flashbacks: Those rare adventures caused by using astral mushrooms. Known to override superlikelies. (A clannie of mine once had one override one of Azazel's items, and he was unable to get liver until CDM reset his flags the next day. Oh, and it was during a contest, fun times.)

5) Welcome Back: if you're due for this and you don't get anything above, you get this.

6) Clovers: If you have a ten-leaf clover in your inventory, your zone has a clover adventure and you've made it this far, you'll get the clover adventure.

7) Semirares: Good ol' semirares. They're the special adventures that occur on predetermined intervals based on a counter you can see if you eat fortune cookies. There are some claims that superlikelies can override semirares, but AFH's spading indicates otherwise. (As an aside if you want to help add data, there are a few ways. You need a character with a closed goatlet, one who's due to get the Mega Gem from Mr. Alarm, or access to an instance of hobopolis with the boss ready. If you hit any of those zones while your cookie counter is up and don't get the semirare, then this order is incorrect.)

8) Superlikelies: Contrary to popular belief, superlikelies are not any noncombat that is unaffected by +/- combat, or any noncombat with a condition on it. In fact, they're not really noncombats at all (unless you use the word "noncombat" to mean "anything that's not a combat", which is awkward). In fact, superlikelies can be affected by +/- combat, Mr. Alarm is one that is affected. So what is a superlikely? It's another class of encounters, and what's special about them is that every superlikely in the zone is checked when you adventure there, before normal combats/noncombats are considered. If you meet all of the conditions for a superlikely adventure (and didn't get something else first from steps 2-7), you will always get that adventure. If you meet all of the conditions for multiple superlikelies, a 1DN is rolled to decide which you get (these include BM adventures). Helpful definition, right?

This definition would be very helpful if we all had access to the innards of KoL. But we don't, and our main way of detecting superlikelies is to look for encounters that appear to be noncombats but that aren't affected by +/- combat, hence that belief. (Another way is that they can override combats, noncombats, and other superlikelies. This is only helpful if you know you're due for a certain encounter, which is rare. But if you've ever had the stone rose or a page adventure in the oasis override an ultrahydrated, you've seen that they're superlikelies.) At any rate, most superlikelies fit that empirical definition, but not all do. That's the takeaway here.

9) Combat/Noncombat: These are the familiar encounters we all know and love: the majority of encounters fit this definition. I've grouped them together because the game decides whether or not you get one or the other at the same time. I'll discuss how you choose which adventure you get in a zone separately. But as one last word, combats and noncombats can have conditions on them, so not everything with a condition is a superlikely (for instance, the Strung-Up Quartet is a normal noncombat with a conditional).

So there you have it, that, in a nutshell, is how the game picks which encounter you'll get.

Now, let's go through how the game decides which of the combat/noncombat choices you get.

First: Combat/noncombat flowchart!

1) Picking combat or noncombat: Every zone has some combat percentage, and this number is an integer (usually a multiple of 5). This number can be modified with +/- combat skills. The game rolls a 1D100, and if the rolled number is higher than the modified combat rate, you get a noncombat. If it's the same or lower, you get a combat. Let's illustrate with an example.

In the haunted ballroom the combat rate is 80%. If you have -20% combats running (say, smooth, sonata, RoC, and the ballroom song) then the rate is 60%. The game rolls a 1D100 and it's 59. You get a combat. The next roll is a 60, you get a combat. The next roll is 61, and you get a noncombat.

Noncombats: Ok, so now you know whether you're getting a combat or a noncombat. How does it choose among the possible alternatives? First we'll go through noncombats, because they're simpler.

2) Building the list: Once the die roll to determine C/NC is done, the game builds up a list of available adventures. For noncombats, this is solely a check to see if you meet the conditions on the adventures in the zone. Yes, that's right, any adventure can have a condition. These can be things like delay() (friar noncombats, adding machine) or number of turns spent since it was last seen (Quartet, O Cap'm), or even a die roll to see you can get the adventure at all (Izchak's, Astronomer). If you don't meet those conditions, the adventure isn't added to the list.

3) Choosing an adventure: Once the list is built the game rolls another die, this time 1DN_NC, where N_NC is the number of noncombats in the zone that pass the above cut (for the ballroom this would be either 1 or 2, you can always get curtains, and sometimes you can get curtains and the quartet). The adventures have numbers, and whichever number is rolled is the choice moving forward.

4) Checking the Queue: But it doesn't end there, thanks to the queue. The queue is a list of the 5 most recently seen noncombats or combats, and every zone has both a combat and noncombat queue. A given c or nc can be in the queue multiple times. What does the queue do? If the chosen adventure is in the queue, it rolls a 1D4, and if the number rolled isn't a 4 it rejects that c/nc and rolls again among the possible c/nc choices (but still in that particular type). If the adventure is not in the queue, this step is skipped.

Ok, that might have been confusing (look at the flowchart if you're having a hard time, it's much better at displaying this info). Now for an example.

Example 1: You've just opened the ballroom and are looking to set the song. You've spent a few turns looking for it, and have already hit Curtains a couple times. So your queue looks like:

[Curtain,Curtain,_,_,_] (where the underscores are empty spots).

The next time you get a nc, the game builds up the noncombat list. Let's say you haven't met the conditions for the song yet, so there's only 1 possible NC, so the game picks it. It still checks the queue, and let's say it rolls a 3. It rerolls the 1D1 (useful!) and picks curtains. It rolls the 1D4 again, this time it's a 4. You get a curtains.

Example 2: You keep adventuring, and the game rolls you another noncombat. This time you meet the conditionals for the song, so it rolls a 1D2. It picks curtains and goes to the queue, then rolls a 2, so it rolls the 1D2 again. This time it picks the ballroom song. Yay! It's not in the queue, so you get it. You set it to -combat, and move on.

Combats: All right, so that's how noncombats are chosen. But combats are trickier since you now need to factor in things like olfaction and banishers. Let's go through that now.

2) Building the List: Combats by and large follow the same structure. Once you've rolled a combat, the game builds up the list of available encounters. The first difference is that when you're building up the list you have to take into account olfaction. If a monster is olfacted, 4 times as many copies are added as normal (so if there is typically 1 monster, there are 4, if there are normally 2, there are now 8, and so on). The second difference is that any banished monster isn't added (unless it's olfacted, you can't banish olfacted monsters). Additionally, if you've banished every encounter in a zone (for some reason), they all become available again. Conditions are checked in the same way as ncs.

3) Choosing an adventure: Then the game rolls the 1DN_C, where N_C is the number of combats in the list. This is the same as for noncombats.

4) Olfaction check: The final difference comes in the olfaction check. If the rolled combat is currently olfacted it skips the queue entirely, and that's your combat.

5) Queue: After that it proceeds with the queue checks, as in noncombats. For a combat that is in the queue, 3/4 times the combat is rerolled, and 1/4 times it proceeds and that's your combat. I illustrated most of this above, so I'm not going to go through an example here. If you're confused look at the flowchart, it should make things pretty clear.


All right, we're almost done. There is one more thing to worry about, and that's what happens if the game rolls a noncombat but there's no suitable adventure. For instance, let's say you're on the poop deck looking for O Cap'm, and let's say you've already unlocked belowdecks. The game rolls a noncombat, but you haven't spent enough turns yet to pass the conditional. It builds up the list for the noncombats, checks O Cap'm's conditionals and it doesn't pass, then check's Swordfish's conditionals and it doesn't pass. It's finished building the list and there are 0 entries, so now it tries to switch to a combat. In this zone there's no problem with that, so you get a combat. This is believed to only happen going from noncombat to combat.

There are some zones (such as the Boss Bat's Lair, only one known) where the game will throw an error when checking its list of available encounters because none match. Usually you're not able to banish every monster in a zone (try it in the goatlet, or some other small-N_C zone), this is a special confluence of events. While building the list the game sees that the bodyguards are banished but that the boss isn't, so it doesn't add the bodyguards back. Then it checks the conditions on the boss, sees that they're not met, so the list is empty. There's nothing else to check, so it throws the error.

So that's it. That is how the game determines which adventure you get, from beginning to end.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:22 pm

Ok, so I figured I should get the ball rolling on this.

Things to consider:
-Is ontology the right word here? I think it is. And I like it.
-I want it to go "Overview of the order in which things happen up to combat/noncombat roll. Then do combat/noncombat separately.
-What the fuck is going on with encounters? Here's the order I believe things happen in:
1) Hardcoded
2) Stupor
3) Clovers
4) Superlikely
5) Scheduled (semirare/wadering monster)
6) C/NC roll (will go through those separately).

Then we have C/NC, which is pretty complicated but I think I have down. Two questions:
1) How do we include olfaction in this? My take is to just cut out the second queue in the discussion I already did, and maybe mention that an olfacted monster is in the zone 4 times as often as it would normally be.
2) There's an NC queue, right? It works the same as the C queue?

What I need confirmation on are those things (the order in part 1, the 2 questions in part 2). I'll start writing it up in the OP in the meantime.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by tiv » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:33 pm

stupac2 wrote:-What the fuck is going on with encounters? Here's the order I believe things happen in:
1) Stupor
2) Wandering monsters (FoB, El Dia, etc)
3) Semirares
4) Clovers
5) Superlikely
6) C/NC roll (will go through those separately).
If I'm not mistaken, clovers will eat your semirare... Ekeinos got uberpants once when he wanted a lunchbox.

EDIT: wiki states FoB/El Dia guys won't override the semirare. Bad Moon specials and clovers will. (Are you planning to include BM adventures, or is this just for runs stu will do? :P)

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by phel » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:37 pm

Do you consider that there is a seperate queue for timer mobs? For example, an El Dia mob is expected every ~30 turns. I seem to recall that if I vacation, say, 25-33, the El Dia is waiting for me in my next real adventure zone.

Also, for the sake of completeness, you may want to include BM-triggered adventures in your list. I've never 'lost' a timed mob due to a BM override. That of course is only anecdotal and doesn't exclude the possibility, but I'm pretty confident that BM adventures push the wandering mob along.

Ontology is a nice-looking word. I'd use it in a scrabble game.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:50 pm

BM adventures are superlikelies. And I was so sure that they used to, I guess that was changed.

Also, I was totally and completely unsure on order. I'll reorder.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by lostcalpolydude » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:00 pm

FoB/El Dia monsters override Drunken Stupor.
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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:10 pm

lostcalpolydude wrote:FoB/El Dia monsters override Drunken Stupor.


Ugh, jesus. And if one of hellion's posts in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2185 is right then so would a semirare. Unless they can trigger on any zone, whereas wandering monsters can trigger anywhere. I suppose that'd make sense.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by tiv » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:20 pm

stupac2 wrote:BM adventures are superlikelies.
I get what you're saying, but are they a separate kind of superlikely?
Example:
The Haunted Billiards Room has a Bad Moon special, the pool cue superlikely, a clover adventure, and a semi-rare adventure. The way I -think- it goes, which could be wrong, would be...
1. Bad Moon -or- Clover (since we don't has clovers in Bad Moon)
2. semi-rare
3. superlikely

So, while Bad Moons are superlikelies, are they treated the same as "other" superlikelies? Is my order incorrect? Also, spell check does not like superlikely.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:26 pm

I believe they are just superlikelies.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by p4n1q » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:31 pm

Has it been confirmed that they do not have ceilings on them?

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:34 pm

p4n1q wrote:Has it been confirmed that they do not have ceilings on them?


It doesn't matter. Superlikelies can have ceilings.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by tiv » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:37 pm

stupac2 wrote:I believe they are just superlikelies.
So then -all- superlikelies can* override semi-rares, or only BM superlikelies** can*? I don't mean to sound dense or anything, but it isn't making sense that the special Bad Moon adventures are exactly the same as say, the manual pages... by definition, the BM adventures are superlikelies, but their behavior doesn't seem to be the same wrt overrides etc. So, I'd think if you were to include them in your list, they'd not be classified with the non-BM superlikelies. Sorry for wordiness, but just trying to not be ambiguous.

*Where "can" means "might, but might not, exactly."
**If these are not treated the same, I might stick with calling them specials. >.>

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:42 pm

I assume all can, tiv. BUT, if you look at where it could possibly happen I don't think you'd ever see it. Maybe if you somehow put the forest off until your semirare, in which you could try to override the blood with the first 3-tined fork or the larva (both superlikelies). But since that would almost never happen, it's not surprising no one has seen it. The same might be true of the plains and the key, but that'd be a lot harder to time.

So if someone wants to try spading this ascend a character, oxydrop, get your counter, run a bunch of turns in the plains (or whatever) until your counter is up, and adventure in the forest. Do that like 20 times and if you never see anything but a blood, they're probably separate.

However, I'm willing to bet that if BM adventures can override a semirare, so can other superlikelies.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by preniqueezer » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:47 pm

Not entirely sure "ontology" is the right word, though it may be close enough. Generally ontology means study of existence, investigation into the nature of being. Like "what's the meaning of life?"

You've got something that's more like a taxonomy: practice and science of classification.

From wikipedia: Typically this is organized by supertype-subtype relationships, also called generalization-specialization relationships, or less formally, parent-child relationships. In such an inheritance relationship, the subtype by definition has the same properties, behaviors, and constraints as the supertype plus one or more additional properties, behaviors, or constraints. For example, car is a subtype of vehicle. So any car is also a vehicle, but not every vehicle is a car. Therefore, a type needs to satisfy more constraints to be a car than to be a vehicle.


Yeah, I think you mean taxonomy.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:55 pm

ontology ((computer science) a rigorous and exhaustive organization of some knowledge domain that is usually hierarchical and contains all the relevant entities and their relations)

I think it fits here.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by p4n1q » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:04 pm

Using "ontology" as a term from a specific field, instead of the meaning it usually has, is reaching.

Is it really appropriate to put "AFH Presents" on this, since so much of it was spaded by people not in AFH?

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:14 pm

I'm not sure that this was so much spaded as "revealed by devs". At any rate I'm the one taking the time to write it up (and, hopefully, correct the wiki), so I don't see why it wouldn't be fine. Not like I spaded out the BoT, or Kel spaded the feast/LBoF.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eigenbasis » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:09 am

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but El Dia monsters can override the Rotting Matilda dance card adventure. However, if you were scheduled to get Matilda and got an El Dia monster, then you used a free runaway on the El Dia monster, your next adventure in the ballroom will be Matilda.
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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:23 am

Ok, well Hellion confirmed that semirares and wandering monsters are the same, basically. So if Bad Moon superlikelies override semirares, but wandering monsters override superlikelies (Mathilda is, I believe, a dev-confirmed superlikely), then we're stuck with a few things:

1) BM adventures aren't superlikelies. That seems really fucking janky to me.
2) Hellion was wrong about those things being the same.

God damn. Annoying.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by HippoKing » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:47 am

stupac2 wrote:In fact, superlikelies can be affected by +/- combat, Mr. Alarm is one that is affected.

Oh god this post makes me sad. I always assumed that there was a superlikely mechanic that got called with a given condition and that meant behaviour would be fairly consistent. This post makes it sound like each zone/encounter has bespoke code, and that means that no consistency can be assumed.

Anyway, it's a nice guide. It has shaken knowledge I thought I knew about selection of SLs. It's a shame that it won't actually change the way I think of playing with regards superlikelies since there just isn't enough information yet. I guess I'll just start bumping up +NC whenever I need a combat even if I don't think its needed.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:52 am

I'm fairly certain Mr. Alarm is the only one, but the point is that, in general, superlikelies are simply encounters with conditions that are checked every time in a zone, rather than some more convenient (from a gameplay perspective) definition.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by HippoKing » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:59 am

Also, how did Hellion confirm the similarity between SRs and Wandering monsters? If it wasn't part of his original plan, I'd suggest attempting to shore-buffer your wanderers to test that theory.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by lostcalpolydude » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:44 pm

HippoKing wrote:Also, how did Hellion confirm the similarity between SRs and Wandering monsters? If it wasn't part of his original plan, I'd suggest attempting to shore-buffer your wanderers to test that theory.

I doubt that's what Hellion meant. It's pretty well-known that if you spend 80 turns in the basement (doesn't trigger FoB monsters), your first adventure in a normal location will be a FoB monster.
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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:39 pm

The question is whether or not they belong in the same tier. It's possible that they're both a type of encounter that happens on a schedule, but when the schedule is checked could be different. I had thought hellion meant they were checked at the same time.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:52 pm

stupac2 wrote:The question is whether or not they belong in the same tier. It's possible that they're both a type of encounter that happens on a schedule, but when the schedule is checked could be different. I had thought hellion meant they were checked at the same time.

I would definitely not put them down as having the same mechanic.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:06 pm

Separated semirares and wandering monsters, and added flashbacks and oyster eggs, which (I think) have to be their category. Holy fucking christ this is getting ridiculous.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by phel » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:47 am

Where would turtle taming fit into this schema, given that they don't take an adventure?

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:43 am

I would not blink if you had merged wandering monsters and flashbacks with "hardcoded", since that would make sense. They at least have to be moved before clovers.

Oyster eggs were changed because it was a bit unfixable, so they drop at the end of adventures instead of having their own adventures.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:36 am

My understanding of "hardcoded" is that it's really just mining and the lab key. Hellion outright said that in the list of superlikelies thread.

Also, shows what I know about eggs. I'll remove them.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:53 pm

stupac2 wrote:My understanding of "hardcoded" is that it's really just mining and the lab key. Hellion outright said that in the list of superlikelies thread.

Well this thread is about updating understanding =)

Mines, tavern rats, the sewer, casino slot machines, the shore, guild challenges, crafting etc. are not adventure zones.

Some other parts of the game are implemented as code called when adventuring, separate from the normal encounter rolling functions. (Including lab key, which absolutely shouldn't be.)

Apart from the order for stupor, how hardcoded/wandering/flashbacks are expressed, and semirares, the rest is solid in the first post now. I'll set up some spading for semirares I guess, they're a bit odd.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:24 pm

Could you tell me more specifically what's wrong with those things?

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:18 pm

Oh, they're not necessarily wrong, just that the rest are definitely right.

I'll look into semirares at least. (I think they might just be superlikelies.)

Hmm, I guess non-adventure zones should really be split off though, if you want to talk about mining etc. (Happens before the start of your list.)

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:37 pm

Yesterday darth confirmed that clovers override semirares. If you want to spade semirare superlikely jazz, easiest bet would be a character with a closed goatlet. See if you get the mining adv or spinach (that was the test darth suggested, which I think would work).

Oh, the other way we "tested" whether semirares are superlikelies was that he had a paste from a dev console that showed the game checking the conditions for superlikelies in the knob outskirts, there were 6 distinct superlikelies (this was from just after NS13). If you count up the superlikelies in that zone you find 6 (besides the turtle since that's new) and the semirare, so it's likely semirares are not superlikelies.

They could potentially be, but I don't think they are.


As for mining and jazz I'll just say that those do their own thing in hardcoded, and basically ignore this structure.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:40 pm

stupac2 wrote:As for mining and jazz I'll just say that those do their own thing in hardcoded, and basically ignore this structure.

That's wrong though, there is a hardcoded part for adventuring and they're not in there.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:47 pm

FINE, I'll just add something at the beginning saying this doesn't apply to those zones.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:52 pm

They're not adventuring zones at all, that's sort of the thing :)

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:18 pm

Eleron wrote:They're not adventuring zones at all, that's sort of the thing :)


Edited to reflect that. I've also started to write up the combat/nomcombat determination.

...This is going to be a long post.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:01 pm

smilegirl just got a mystic shell instead of Mega Gem.

Also, a Mob Penguin hitman instead of gong return.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:08 pm

Eleron wrote:smilegirl just got a mystic shell instead of Mega Gem.


Is mega gem 100%?

And if that's true then fuck, BM adventures are separate from superlikelies. Or they can't override semirares after all.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:17 pm

No, semirares are just superlikely, probably.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:28 pm

Eleron wrote:No, semirares are just superlikely, probably.


Hmm, that still seems awkward to me, but I guess the only spading option is to do that a bunch of times and see if you ever get a gem.

Also, I've "finished" the post. And here's my flowchart for C/NC: http://www.lucidchart.com/documents/vie ... 580ad151ed

I'm not 100% on my described mechanism for picking between C/NC. I *think* it's right, or at least equivalent to right, but I'm not sure. Going through that monster block of text would be quite helpful.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:31 pm

stupac2 wrote:Also, I've "finished" the post. And here's my flowchart for C/NC: http://www.lucidchart.com/documents/vie ... 580ad151ed

It should build up selection lists instead, since it was spoiled that that's how it works.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:37 pm

What does that mean/can you point me to where it was spoiled?

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:41 pm

CDM wasn't sure, but said he thinks semirares happen before all superlikelies, including BM.

stupac2 wrote:What does that mean/can you point me to where it was spoiled?

Umm, that's the thing CDM was talking about in the gameplay thread.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:44 pm

The mechanics one? Also, apparently the wiki lies (or wherever tiv saw that BM adventures can eat semirares. It was probably just an incompetent adventurer). I'll correct the order.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:45 pm

If anyone has semi-rares coming up and would be willing to help test this, spending them at unlocked heck hobopolis bosses or in the not-unlocked goatlet would be nice.

What's certain:
fob-like monsters <= gong return < clover < semirare <= superlikely < combat/noncombat choice < adventure selection roll
superlikely < semirare counter reset
drunken stupor zone change < adventure selection
shape of mole zone reject < combat/noncombat choice (probably way way way earlier)

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:48 pm

So, eleron, you mean here: http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/vb/ ... tcount=299

That seems like a minor correction, I'll add it in.


ETA: Are banishers factored into the rebuild, or are they as I have them? Both work, but if it's rebuilding I'd guess factoring in there would be more parsimonious.

Ugh, gongs, ADDING THOSE TOO.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:53 pm

stupac2 wrote:ETA: Are banishers factored into the rebuild, or are they as I have them? Both work, but if it's rebuilding I'd guess factoring in there would be more parsimonious.

Not really known, but make sure banishers don't banish away olfacted monsters in what you end up with =) I think it removes them from the list though, yeah.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:57 pm

That's kind of interesting. My way doesn't interfere with olfaction at all no matter what, while the rebuild would require additional logic to make sure that the banished monster isn't olfacted. I think I like my way better, maybe we can ask CDM (although he doesn't ever respond to me...).

ETA: By gongs, do you mean all gong adventures, or just Welcome Back?

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:00 pm

stupac2 wrote:That's kind of interesting. My way doesn't interfere with olfaction at all no matter what, while the rebuild would require additional logic to make sure that the banished monster isn't olfacted. I think I like my way better, maybe we can ask CDM (although he doesn't ever respond to me...).

ETA: By gongs, do you mean all gong adventures, or just Welcome Back?

If it just does the olfaction add before/independently of banish check, there's no worry. I doubt they really thought about it, just put the code in some places.

I just meant welcome back for the gong, the roach ones are probably not an adventure zone. I'm not sure when the mole check is done, that could be some fun there.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by slaphappy snark » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:05 pm

stupac2 wrote:...This is going to be a long post.

Would it make sense to have the special/scheduled/superlikely/whatever adventure determination thing/flowchart be in one post that then links to the combat/noncombat determination thing with the next flowchart in a separate post? Even though it's all related, and the whole 'beginning to end' concept is nice, there's a lot going on in this post and separating would give room to expand explanations as needed without getting intimidatingly longer. Maybe the discussions of those portions would benefit a great deal from each other, in which case this is a terrible idea.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:08 pm

Oh, I think it could be a good idea to have a short thread with just the facts, and then someplace else that explains how the queue works with examples and all that. Or well, just two or more posts in the same thread =)

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Nomen Nescio » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:17 pm

Eleron wrote:If anyone has semi-rares coming up and would be willing to help test this, spending them at unlocked heck hobopolis bosses or in the not-unlocked goatlet would be nice.


I've done this at burnbarrel blvd and I'm pretty sure the boss choice overrode the semirare and I think I still got the semirare after rejecting the boss adventure. Is that what you mean? If you want I can search through my logs later to see what happened.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:27 pm

Nomen Nescio wrote:I've done this at burnbarrel blvd and I'm pretty sure the boss choice overrode the semirare and I think I still got the semirare after rejecting the boss adventure. Is that what you mean? If you want I can search through my logs later to see what happened.

Yep, that's exactly what I mean to test now. Adventure there and choose not to fight every time until you get the SR (or die of boredom after 20 tries, but that won't happen since the SR can definitely appear). If it ever asks you to fight first before giving you the SR, in the game as it exists today, bingo!


A) Get through the heck hobopolis sewers.
B) Wait until you're about to get a semirare.
C) Adventure in the sleazy zone, rejecting the boss fight, until you get the semirare.
D) Report on whether you got asked for any boss fights before the SR appeared, done, yay! =)

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by tiv » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:36 pm

stupac2 wrote:The mechanics one? Also, apparently the wiki lies (or wherever tiv saw that BM adventures can eat semirares. It was probably just an incompetent adventurer). I'll correct the order.

Wiki's SR page. Just do like, a search for "bad moon" on that page or something

I'm not correcting it, so someone else might want to. People who post shit on the wiki without confirming its accuracy should have their fingers removed. >.>

Oh, also, did the PLD on SR for Eleron... boss did not come up. Went straight to SR adventure :)

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:40 pm

slaphappy snark wrote:Would it make sense to have the special/scheduled/superlikely/whatever adventure determination thing/flowchart be in one post that then links to the combat/noncombat determination thing with the next flowchart in a separate post? Even though it's all related, and the whole 'beginning to end' concept is nice, there's a lot going on in this post and separating would give room to expand explanations as needed without getting intimidatingly longer. Maybe the discussions of those portions would benefit a great deal from each other, in which case this is a terrible idea.


I would rather have it be long. Right now the biggest problem with this shit is that the information is mostly known, but it's not synthesized anywhere (there are some things that aren't known, sure, but those are typically more edge-type cases). I want this post to be everything, and that necessitates long. If everyone else disagrees then I guess we can break it up, but I don't think it makes any sense. And since the whole thing can be summarized by the flowcharts, I don't think that's a huge loss (by my count there are nearly 1,000 words explaining the second flowchart).


Eleron, right now I have a few specific questions. How does the roll to decide combat/noncombat work (is the 1d100 model correct?), and how does the game decide when to stop rerolling inside C/NC and switch to the other? That is, when there's no noncombat/combat whose criteria you meet, how many tries before it aborts to the opposite?

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:55 pm

stupac2 wrote:I would rather have it be long. [...] I want this post to be everything, and that necessitates long. If everyone else disagrees then I guess we can break it up, but I don't think it makes any sense. And since the whole thing can be summarized by the flowcharts, I don't think that's a huge loss (by my count there are nearly 1,000 words explaining the second flowchart).

Well I'm not sure the first post has to include all the explanations and examples. I think there's something to a first post that contains how it works, and a second post that explains it.

stupac2 wrote:Eleron, right now I have a few specific questions. How does the roll to decide combat/noncombat work (is the 1d100 model correct?), and how does the game decide when to stop rerolling inside C/NC and switch to the other? That is, when there's no noncombat/combat whose criteria you meet, how many tries before it aborts to the opposite?

It does roll a die, yes, and it's intended to be a percentage roll. (Not sure if it's implemented exactly as intended or not.) I'm also not sure whether it tries and eventually aborts anymore, or only aborts instantly when there are none available in the selection list at all.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:53 pm

Eleron wrote:Well I'm not sure the first post has to include all the explanations and examples. I think there's something to a first post that contains how it works, and a second post that explains it.


While that could work, I think it loses some of its punch. I much prefer using an example to elucidate the point rather than using it to illustrate the whole. There are a lot of parts of this process that just shouldn't be confusing, and those I haven't elaborated on. But the queue and rerolling are kind of confusing, so I feel that they need examples. Taking those examples out of the OP and into a second (besides being a double-post, which I try not to do on the main forums) seems like it defeats that purpose.

It does roll a die, yes, and it's intended to be a percentage roll. (Not sure if it's implemented exactly as intended or not.) I'm also not sure whether it tries and eventually aborts anymore, or only aborts instantly when there are none available in the selection list at all.


Is there a selection list for noncombats? I had assumed no, since then the checking to see if you meet a condition happens before the roll, and I was dead-sure it happened after. Desatysso had a post in the superlikely thread saying that this is how it worked, as illustrated by some bug in the middle chamber based on faulty conditions. It could have been changed somehow, if anyone knows (or knows how to find out) I really need to know.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Serra725 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:30 pm

I agree with Stu that the point is to gather all the information in one place, so even if it's complex, one post is good.

I don't know if you're ready for picky things at this point. If you are, the following paragraph confused me for a second, until I got to the flowchart and example.
But it doesn't end there, thanks to the queue. The queue is a list of the 5 most recently seen noncombats or combats, and every zone has both a combat and noncombat queue. A given c or nc can be in the queue multiple times. What does the queue do? It rolls a 1D4, and if the number rolled isn't a 4 it rejects that c/nc and rolls again among the possible c/nc choices (but still in that particular type).

You're rolling dice all over the place, so at first I was wondering where the D4 came from. I think this would be clearer if you used the 75% / 25% that the flowchart does here in the text, as well.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:46 pm

But the flowchart is good? It took me a while to get everything on there and readable, I'm not sure if it's intelligible to someone who didn't make it.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by slaphappy snark » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:54 pm

Okay, that makes sense about wanting it all in one post. Apologies if I'm getting ahead of myself with picky formatting, but can you divide up the combat/noncombat section more with subheaders, maybe with examples in code tags or italics or something? I think it would be useful to be able to easily find a section of that section, like if someone wants to re-read the section on how combats are selected, for example.

stu wrote:But the flowchart is good? It took me a while to get everything on there and readable, I'm not sure if it's intelligible to someone who didn't make it.
I think the flowchart is pretty understandable.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Serra725 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:08 pm

Yeah, I definitely like the idea of having some headings in there.

And the flowchart is wonderful! To me, it's easier to understand than the text, although you need text too, for the details.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:12 pm

Right now I'm reluctant to really do anything, while some details are still up in the air. I'll get to that, though.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Serra725 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:20 pm

Okay, I guess we should let you get the content worked out before more format pickiness. :)

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Pantsless » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:50 pm

Using "ontology" is weird here, since in Philosophy (which is the primary usage of the word) it refers primarily to entities rather than systems or mechanics. Also it is one of those words that makes the user sound pretentious, in any context. /nitpick

1. The BM-adventures-can-override-SRs thing has been repeated a lot (it's on the Wiki AND in Salti's guide), but I've never actually had it happen. I THOUGHT I had it happen once or twice, but that was during that period of time where mafia's cookie counter was buggy - I adventured again and got the lunchbox on the next turn.

2. BM adventures vs clovers CAN be tested, in BM aftercore.

3. In Ekeinos's Black Cat run, he got a fairly large amount of tavern drunkenness. He theorized that the BM Leprechaun adventure overrode the higher-superlikely-rate lenses. I've just had the same thing happen in this run.

4. This is shaping up to be an awesomely useful thread, nice work Stu.
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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:05 pm

Pantsless wrote:Using "ontology" is weird here, since in Philosophy (which is the primary usage of the word) it refers primarily to entities rather than systems or mechanics. Also it is one of those words that makes the user sound pretentious, in any context. /nitpick


FINE.

1. The BM-adventures-can-override-SRs thing has been repeated a lot (it's on the Wiki AND in Salti's guide), but I've never actually had it happen. I THOUGHT I had it happen once or twice, but that was during that period of time where mafia's cookie counter was buggy - I adventured again and got the lunchbox on the next turn.


I'm starting to think it doesn't happen. "People being mistaken" is one hell of a lot simpler than the alternative.

2. BM adventures vs clovers CAN be tested, in BM aftercore.


Pretty sure clovers would win, but someone can test it.

3. In Ekeinos's Black Cat run, he got a fairly large amount of tavern drunkenness. He theorized that the BM Leprechaun adventure overrode the higher-superlikely-rate lenses. I've just had the same thing happen in this run.


That's consistent with their being superlikelies.

4. This is shaping up to be an awesomely useful thread, nice work Stu.


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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Pantsless » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:18 pm

stupac2 wrote:That's consistent with their being superlikelies.


Only thing is, at the time, someone (Hellion?) said that it wasn't possible for that to happen. So, I dunno.
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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Taxonomy

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:24 pm

From what we know about superlikelies if they're both superlikelies it should be possible.

ETA: I've updated the post to reflect RT's wiki-ing: http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/ind ... ture_Queue

He assures me that's correct.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Ontology

Post by Eleron » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:28 pm

Pantsless wrote:Using "ontology" is weird here, since in Philosophy (which is the primary usage of the word) it refers primarily to entities rather than systems or mechanics. Also it is one of those words that makes the user sound pretentious, in any context. /nitpick

"Taxonomy" is fine, but that's just silly, in about 5(!) ways.

stupac2 wrote:
1. The BM-adventures-can-override-SRs thing has been repeated a lot (it's on the Wiki AND in Salti's guide), but I've never actually had it happen. I THOUGHT I had it happen once or twice, but that was during that period of time where mafia's cookie counter was buggy - I adventured again and got the lunchbox on the next turn.


I'm starting to think it doesn't happen. "People being mistaken" is one hell of a lot simpler than the alternative.

That is indeed a quite good explanation.

stupac2 wrote:From what we know about superlikelies if they're both superlikelies it should be possible.

Not necessarily, many BM adventures are coded (have conditions) to not happen until you should be done with what you normally want to do in the zone. Whether a possibly intended mechanic is implemented correctly is of course another question entirely.

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Re: AFH Presents: An Encounter Taxonomy

Post by stupac2 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:37 pm

I had RT take a look at it and he pointed out a few minor things, mostly related to the shit CDM spoiled to him about the adventure list once you've hit C/NC. I'll update that tomorrow.


So, besides those points, is there anything else I need to fix/wait to be spaded, or can I get this out this weekend?

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