Speed (running & exercise)

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by lotsofphil » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:48 am

Good job rac!

In NJ it was always the 30-39 that won. 20-29 was too busy drinking and wenching to race well, I assumed :)

edit: also, this thread has inspired me to start running again after long lay off. If you guys get me inspired to race (and do track workouts and such) again, I don't think I'll be pleased. I will curse your names at the end of any and all intervals :-P

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:48 pm

My name sounds good when yelled over the tape of a finish line. ;) Leeeeerooooyyyyy Jennnnnkinnnns! Hmm, I mean . . .well you know what I mean.

As for intervals, I joined the local track club. I wake at 5am to do intervals with the hard-bodies. At the first meeting it was dark and while it hadn't rained in 3 week here, that morning it decided to pour. I thought nobody would show up. Was I wrong. About 18 people standing there with their taut legs bobbing up and down in the puddles and everyone bounced to keep warm. Head-lamps trained on the coach spelling out the workout.

I started with the 2nd fastest group, because when they called out the 5k pace, I was between 1st and 2nd. After the 3rd interval, the coach yelled out, "Hey you! You should be with them," thumbing group 1. So the second meeting my whole goal was to just hang with group 1. Even if it was clinging on to the ass-end of it.

I did a bit better than that.

I'm a bit surprised the group training doesn't leave me sucking canal water. My interval workouts for the marathon were a lot more intense. Then again, I'm sure the coach would say he's surprised I didn't injure myself.

Still, it's interesting and nice to run with a pack. Kinda fun when someone else is setting the pace for the group and all you're trying to do is hold on.

Also fun to see the grannies in the group 1 smoke me.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Raccoon » Sun May 13, 2012 12:36 am

Signed up for a big 5K race at the last moment (well, almost the last moment; it wasn't walk-in registration). I looked at the map of the course but didn't research the elevation. I expected a more or less flat course, but instead I got rolling hills . . . . Finished in 22:59, which was 44th out of 629.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by top1214 » Sun May 13, 2012 12:55 am

Raccoon wrote:Signed up for a big 5K race at the last moment (well, almost the last moment; it wasn't walk-in registration). I looked at the map of the course but didn't research the elevation. I expected a more or less flat course, but instead I got rolling hills . . . . Finished in 22:59, which was 44th out of 629.
...so no Bronze Button?

Congrats!

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Sun May 13, 2012 4:16 pm

Nice run, Rac. Even if it was rolley-poley. We had a local hill-climb 5k here last weekend. Sign for the last mile said: "Only 8 more switch-backs! :) " I decided to volunteer instead of run. Instead I ran (not raced) a trail-HM this weekend. Miles 5-6 were murderous with hills and mountain-bike trail "challenges". Didn't help that I'm battling a cold. Still, I got what I wanted out of it.

btw: for those getting into this and hate lugging around your iPhone for GPS, I saw this deal on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006JPBALS/ref ... s_sce_dp_1 for a Schwin GPS and HRM watch. No idea of the quality. But at $70, it's hard to beat the price.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by TeKRunneR » Mon May 14, 2012 5:05 am

I think it's funny that you guys were worried earlier in the thread about a BMI of 20 being too low. My BMI is 17 and I'm perfectly healthy. Have you ever looked at pro 10k runners? I'm pretty sure they have an even lower BMI. What really matters is what your general shape is.

After several years of running on the flat (which inspired my handle, in fact), I now focus on mountain trails. Yesterday I ran a race, 25.5k and 1500m of elevation gain. Took me 2h52, and I was pretty happy with that.

Nardo: I think joining a local club is the best thing you can do if you want to run in the long-term. Interval training can be really hard and fairly boring (I know every hole in the local track by heart by now). Doing it as a group makes it significantly easier mentally.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Raccoon » Wed May 16, 2012 4:13 pm

TeKRunneR wrote:I think it's funny that you guys were worried earlier in the thread about a BMI of 20 being too low. My BMI is 17 and I'm perfectly healthy. Have you ever looked at pro 10k runners? I'm pretty sure they have an even lower BMI. What really matters is what your general shape is.
Next time my wife complains that I'm too skinny, I'll just point over to you, Tek! :lol:

(I do agree that the general shape is more important than individual BMI, although I have to say, a BMI of 17 would put me at 118 pounds @ 5'10", which sounds pretty skeletal.)
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Sat May 19, 2012 8:44 pm

Just knocked out a great 5K. Came in 2nd (word to the wise, find obscure races and win them). I was actually in 1st place for 3miles then got smoked by someone out for just a casual stroll.

New PR: 19:38 :shock: . (old PR was 21:34).

Full race report
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Raccoon » Sat May 19, 2012 11:28 pm

NardoLoopa wrote:Just knocked out a great 5K. Came in 2nd (word to the wise, find obscure races and win them). I was actually in 1st place for 3miles then got smoked by someone out for just a casual stroll.

New PR: 19:38 :shock: . (old PR was 21:34).

Full race report
Wow, awesome job!
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by JennyUnderpants » Sun May 20, 2012 9:15 pm

Well. I just did my first (sort of) 5K. I conned Maryth and efot and a third friend of mine into doing the Warrior Dash with me. It was super duper fun :) The best time turned in today was 20:59:80. MY time was 49:45:45 :oops: I'm happy though; I was aiming for under an hour. And considering I didn't start training until a month ago, I'm quite glad I didn't die. I think we're going to do another one in September, or possibly the zombie one as long as it doesn't interfere with volleyball tournaments.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Raccoon » Sun May 20, 2012 11:08 pm

JennyUnderpants wrote:Well. I just did my first (sort of) 5K. I conned Maryth and efot and a third friend of mine into doing the Warrior Dash with me. It was super duper fun :) The best time turned in today was 20:59:80. MY time was 49:45:45 :oops: I'm happy though; I was aiming for under an hour. And considering I didn't start training until a month ago, I'm quite glad I didn't die. I think we're going to do another one in September, or possibly the zombie one as long as it doesn't interfere with volleyball tournaments.
Congrats, Jenny! Maybe the speed bug will bite you too -- it can get as time intensive as KoL speed ascension, but it's a lot healthier!
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:32 am

Okay, Venice, Italy is perhaps one of the worse places in the 1st world to run . . . unless you're Jesus Christ. Otherwise, too many tourists; too easy to get lost; streets are very narrow; lots of hard stone for that good knee injury feeling. So I didn't run at all while there.

Split, Croatia was a different story -- nice park/hill to run on with some nice trails. Even a beach to float down for your intervals.

Similar story with the food. Venice, Italy was so disappointing. From expensive meals to cheap meals, I can easily find better Italian in the states. Very bland. In Croatia the food rocked; I ate my fill and then some.

Net result of this athletically crappy 3-week vacation? +2lbs. Not bad. But I clearly need to work on it; I'm now MarathonWeight + 4lbs.

In related news: I've unfortunately, landed in clothing size limbo. I'm down 3in on my belt size and now a Medium in shirts except for arm-length. Clothing shopping is even more annoying/depressing now.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by lotsofphil » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:56 pm

NardoLoopa wrote: In related news: I've unfortunately, landed in clothing size limbo. I'm down 3in on my belt size and now a Medium in shirts except for arm-length. Clothing shopping is even more annoying/depressing now.
Yay! Last time I got measure for a tux they re-did the measurements because my arms seemed "extraordinarily long". :)

I used to scorn people who ran on Broadway (and similarly busy streets) in NYC. Now I realize they just didn't want to get lost. Running in non-park parts of crowded cities is lame.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by wiseworm » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:45 pm

NardoLoopa wrote:Similar story with the food. Venice, Italy was so disappointing. From expensive meals to cheap meals, I can easily find better Italian in the states.
Venice is a city that is as beautiful as it's different from the other italian major cities. The huge foreign tourism almost "corrupts" the food habits of local restaurants and other food places. Additionally, in Italy it's typical to find the best food in the smallest cities.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Eigenbasis » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:37 pm

wiseworm wrote:
NardoLoopa wrote:Similar story with the food. Venice, Italy was so disappointing. From expensive meals to cheap meals, I can easily find better Italian in the states.
Venice is a city that is as beautiful as it's different from the other italian major cities. The huge foreign tourism almost "corrupts" the food habits of local restaurants and other food places. Additionally, in Italy it's typical to find the best food in the smallest cities.
I concur. I had one great meal and one bad meal in Venice. The good meal was off the beaten path and the bad one was in the middle of the popular tourism spots.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:30 pm

After almost a month off of speed-work, and reduced number of miles (35mpw instead of 50), I checked in a 19:08 5K. (-30sec off my PR in May).

Bad news is, Coach wants me to do "aqua-running" . . . where you put on floaties and pretend you're running in the pool. I just did it for 95mins today. God it sucks. But it's supposed to be a way to help rack up the miles w/o getting injured. BOO, injuries!
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by TeKRunneR » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:08 am

I hope you realize that with these times you'll have to aim for 3h at your next marathon. I'm considering registering for one in October myself. It would be my first, and my goal would be 3h. Still hesitating though, I'm not sure I can take the intensive training to get there...

This Sunday I'm running my longest race so far: 48km, 3000m of total elevation gain. I'm hoping to finish in 7 to 8h, but my only real goal will be to finish at all.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by lotsofphil » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:50 am

TeKRunneR wrote:I hope you realize that with these times you'll have to aim for 3h at your next marathon.
Huh. I was going to post "nah, more like 18 minutes, I'd say". Then I checked mc millan (http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/index.ph ... /calculate) and it says 3:06.

Consider me surprised. My 5k was about 18 mins and I ran a marathon in 3:28. I know I was in better shape for the 5k, but... huh.

Get to work Nardo! :) And good luck TekRunner.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by TeKRunneR » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:18 pm

Heh, sorry if I'm making you feel bad. These numbers are very theoretical anyway, and only indicate a (mostly cardiovascular) potential. There are a bunch of other parameters, including accepting to suffer a whole lot for several hours, just so that your time is a little better at the end. That's partly why I'm still hesitating about that marathon actually. I've been mountain-running for a little while now, and that's much more about running in beautiful places and simply finishing. Not that you suffer any less, but the goals are just different. I don't know if I can really get back into a competitive mindset, and I'm not really interested in running a marathon just so I can finish it.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by TeKRunneR » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:31 am

8h45. That's how long it took me. I didn't think I could run / trot / walk / crawl that long.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by lotsofphil » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:53 am

That looks like an awesome setting for a run!

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Raccoon » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:11 pm

TeKRunneR wrote:8h45. That's how long it took me. I didn't think I could run / trot / walk / crawl that long.

http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?i ... to0405.jpg
Great job!

By the way, I'm sure you are healthy as all out, but the next time my wife (or my dad . . . or my mother . . . or my mom-in-law) complains that I'm too skinny, I'm going to direct her to your picture!!!
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by big_mara » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:11 pm

Way to be, tek. That's awesome. And a beautiful setting to boot.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Raccoon » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:49 pm

Ran my best 5K so far . . . 21:28. Still failed at achieving negative splits, but at least they were pretty close: 6:51, 7:08, 7:08 for the first three miles.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:10 pm

So, July 2nd I hit 1,200 miles for the year.

Then, on July 4th I ran a 5K. Was aiming for 18:59. Ended up with 20:02. :?

Went out at 6:08, then 6:11, then . . . 7:11. Wow, did I blow up. 85F, 72F Dew Point. Everyone in the chute had a similar story.

So, is it Winter yet?

Unfortunately, that's the last of my 5K sharpened races. Now, on to Marathon training. Doing Pfitz's 18/70 program.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by TeKRunneR » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:36 am

I'm starting my marathon training too. No way I could possibly run 70 miles a week personally. You're quite committed to this whole running thing Nardo. I'm just going to cobble up some kind of plan with a focus on intervals the first month, threshold runs the second month and then marathon pace until the race. Guess I'll see what happens.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by big_mara » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:37 am

I'm 5 weeks into my marathon training program for a September race. Averaging about 40 mpw for the entire program. I can't imagine hitting 70 in a single week, let alone sustaining that. I'm running four days a week with intervals on Tuesday, hill repeats on Thursday, a tempo run on Saturday, and a long run of 13+ miles on Sunday. Oddly, the only one I enjoy is the Sunday run >.>

As a side note, this thread basically sparked my interest in running. After starting running in early April, I ran my first half marathon on May 20th @ 1:34:29. My marathon goal right now is anything sub-3:30, but I'm considering shooting lower. I really like getting lost in a long run. My far, far off goal is working toward ultras. Sadly, I don't have much in the way of trails in this godawful Midwestern landscape.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by TeKRunneR » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:27 pm

1h34 is pretty damn impressive if you had only been running for a month and a half. You should definitely have the potential for 3h15 - 3h20, but be careful, experience does matter quite a bit over 42 kilometers. Your program might be relatively low on volume, but it's pretty high on quality. Not enjoying your runs can be a sign that you're training too hard though, so be careful. In particular, you could probably replace the hill repeats with a 40min - 1 hour jog (and alternate intervals with hill repeats instead).

A few years back I used to sometimes run with one of my neighbors. We both planned to run a marathon, and he wrote himself a training program, which he gave me a copy of. He was all like "here, have my program, you can use it to train as well!". I never did much with it, because each week had up to 12 training sessions. His goal was something like 2h10 (then he broke a rib and couldn't run the marathon; then the marathon itself was canceled and I couldn't either).

Maybe I'll run an ultra some day. I know of some people who ran ultras barely a year after they started running. Not fast at all, but that's still much better than what I can do. It's all a matter of how much time you can invest, and how much suffering you're ready to take.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:39 pm

Are you two going from a known plan? (Hal Higdon, Pfitzinger, Gaudette, Hudson)?

Reason I ask is that you don't look to be following the typical structure of:

Build Base
Build Strength
Sharpen

Instead, you seem to be:
Build Strength and Base and Sharpen -- all very early on.

I'm kinda new at this, so maybe I'm missing something.

On a side note, these hot runs are killing me. Still, logging 60mpw for the last month. 86F at 6:30am is kinda testing me, though.

The hardest part of 70 is finding the time to get it all in.

BTW: big_mara -- you're smoke'n with that HM time!
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by big_mara » Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:30 pm

When I started this I randomly bought The Marathon Method by Tom Holland. While it's far from the best, it is very structured and provided complete weight-lifting plans, information on what to expect at the marathon, nutrition advice, etc. Very decent for a beginner like me. I had done the Insanity program before this and figured what the hell, a marathon might be possible for me. I started by doing a 5k, albeit not a race, per Nardo's suggestion and hit around 23 minutes. I guess that's pretty good for someone who hasn't gone on a run that long in 6+ years since I played tennis in high school.

I decided to follow the intermediate marathon plan in The Marathon Method and did that for six weeks leading up to a hastily-scheduled half marathon. Survival was the name of the game for that event. I went out way too fast and my pace slipped for the second half of the half by about 1 minute/mile. The lesson has been learned. Now I have moved on to the advanced plan in the book:
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This plan introduces intervals, hill repeats, and tempo runs; I'd like to think the previous preparation for my half was sort of a base-building phase. While I haven't been very diligent with my weight lifting, minus core strengthening, I have yet to miss a run. I do agree with you, Nardo, that this plan seems to work on everything all at once. I'd imagine you can probably find that flaw in any 16-week marathon plan.

As for over-doing it, I'd imagine I probably was for a while. I have since learned my limits. The last few weeks has been a huge improvement from the first two months. I realize now that being sore to the point of pain is probably not normal. I'm definitely going to moderate myself better going forward as my most important goal is to finish. I think I have a harder time on the intervals specifically because I don't care for track running. I guess I'll either have to find some group to join or find a reasonably flat trail to run on Tuesdays.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:09 pm

There are certainly some identifiable parts of this plan that look similar to all reasonable plans. I was afraid there wasn't any periodization, but the first 4 weeks are clearly for endurance. I guess you're just further along than I thought.

50mpw is pretty rough -- enjoy! ;)
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by TeKRunneR » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:18 am

I'm not going from a specific plan myself. I don't think I need to build up endurance any more, if anything I've already been doing that for the past 6 months. Judging from recent performances (for example, 4 hours for 38km and 1500m of altitude gain), if I were to run a flat marathon right now I'd finish in about 3h10, maybe even a little less. I know what I need to focus on to shave off these 5-10 minutes: tempo runs (which I've almost never done in 10 years of running...) and marathon pace.

big_mara: I might be repeating myself a little, but joining a local club is really the best thing you can do if you're having trouble with intervals. Intervals are absolutely exhausting if you do them properly. Emulation and encouragements from other runners and a coach help immensely in giving your best during these sessions.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by lotsofphil » Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:27 pm

TeKRunneR wrote:tempo runs (which I've almost never done in 10 years of running...) and marathon pace.
Those two are definitely what I thought were most useful when I was training for a marathon. I absolutely hated marathon pace runs.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:57 pm

lotsofphil wrote:Those two are definitely what I thought were most useful when I was training for a marathon. I absolutely hated marathon pace runs.
Uh . . . why? Aren't a tempo run and an MP run the same thing -- except the Tempo is often faster? Seems the MP would be nice considering you run everything else at a slower pace (easy and recovery runs).

Guess I'm just missing something.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by lotsofphil » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:34 pm

Tempo is faster and *shorter*. Memories are hazy but I hated having to run faster than my natural jog pace but not actually fast.

If it doesn't make sense, don't worry about it. I am probably confusing things in my mind... (secretly goes to find old logs)

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by big_mara » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:57 pm

Tek, I would love that. I have only found one such group in Omaha. It is unfortunately not convenient for me at all. I have crowd aversion, don't really like running with other people, and hate running on tracks so I don't know if it is for me. I'd still like to try it at some point because I'm sure there's much to be learned. Me thinks that will come next cycle.

As for tempo runs, I kind of get what you mean, Phil. For me it's more that I don't have a great feel for what my 5k or 10k pace is and I struggle with keeping that consistent. It seems more strenuous than LCD running or a balls-out speed attempt since you know that you don't get to grab your stomach and take a break when you're done.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:59 pm

big_mara wrote:Tek, I would love that. I have only found one such group in Omaha. It is unfortunately not convenient for me at all. I have crowd aversion, don't really like running with other people, and hate running on tracks so I don't know if it is for me. I'd still like to try it at some point because I'm sure there's much to be learned. Me thinks that will come next cycle.

As for tempo runs, I kind of get what you mean, Phil. For me it's more that I don't have a great feel for what my 5k or 10k pace is and I struggle with keeping that consistent. It seems more strenuous than LCD running or a balls-out speed attempt since you know that you don't get to grab your stomach and take a break when you're done.
I'm almost the same about groups. I like going solo. But since I joined the speed track group I've taken my 5K from 21:38 to 19:08. :shock: Two big PRs were done by "feel". I wasn't so much watching my watch as feeling the pace and knowing I could keep it because of interval workouts. Running with a group is worth it for the pacing.

I also learned my 5K pace with that group. I could feel when I was running it, and how much it was taxing me. I also found out I could push it.

If you can take the people, it certainly helps the pace.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Raccoon » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:04 pm

NardoLoopa wrote:I'm almost the same about groups. I like going solo. But since I joined the speed track group I've taken my 5K from 21:38 to 19:08. :shock: Two big PRs were done by "feel". I wasn't so much watching my watch as feeling the pace and knowing I could keep it because of interval workouts. Running with a group is worth it for the pacing.

I also learned my 5K pace with that group. I could feel when I was running it, and how much it was taxing me. I also found out I could push it.

If you can take the people, it certainly helps the pace.
:cry:
I'd like to run with a track group, but the ones around me all run at terribly inconvenient times, given that I take on about 75% of the parenting duties related to dropping the kids off at school and picking them up, watching them until dinner time, etc.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by TeKRunneR » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:22 am

When in nature I like running alone too. I love the freedom that running offers (freedom to go slow or fast, to run 20 minutes or 2 hours, to run around the block or to see where that little mysterious path leads to), and doing it with someone else does restrict that freedom. But intervals aren't really the same thing. They're purely about pushing hard so that you can improve. And when on a track it's not a problem if everyone runs at a different pace, so the group isn't really a constraint.

I'm not that comfortable in crowds either, but running and suffering together creates bonds by itself. Some groups are probably better than others, but I think most are nice enough. I don't know how it is in the US, but here I'd say that the biggest difference between groups is how serious they are about competition. Of course it's always better when you have a choice... (in my little town of 20,000 people there are not 1 but 2 running clubs). There's no easy way around schedule problems, but you can keep in mind that you rarely want to run intervals more than once a week anyway. My group has only one time slot that's convenient for me, but that's good enough.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:31 am

For my first marathon I didn't join the local "Marathon Training Program" (MTP), because after looking at a friend's training plan, made by the community Coach, I thought it was way too conservative for me. "Finishing" a marathon wasn't as important as testing my limits. So, I did my own thing from a plan I found on-line and modified it as I went. Worked out pretty well.

Now, since April, I've been running with that Coach at the local speed-workout on Wednesday mornings held at the local H.S. track. Took my 5K from 21:38 to 19:08 by mid June. The workouts vary from "easy" to "wow, that was damn hard . . . and satisfying". He ushered me into the top group, where I've gone from just trying to hang to about 4th fastest. (The local champions don't often come to this workout).

The MTP started up again and I decided to sign up, if anything just to have a bunch of people to run with on the 20milers, and to find some new places to run around town. Having water-stations set-up for long runs sounded like a great idea as well.

The first weekend, I hit the road with the closest group to my objective as possible, the 8:10 group. I'd prefer a 7:50 group, but you take what you can get. They were really nice people -- even the guy who runs like he's stomping grapes. However, when Coach was writing my training plan he called me up and asked me to meet with him because "[I'm] kinda special case".

I went to his shop. He sat me down and told me there were a bunch of faster guys he wanted me to run with. "They're all just sub-3 marathoners". :shock: Told me I should run with them on the next 16mi run. That run was scheduled to be at "Aerobic Heart Rate" (which means, the running side of "easy"). I asked what their AHR pace would be. "7:20". "Uh, Coach, you realize that's just 5seconds off my marathon goal pace, right?" "You're faster that that". (nice booster shot to the arm of confidence)

So, I ran with them. My goal was just to hang-on for half the workout and slip into the 8:10 folks after the half. They took off at 7:10 and pretty much held that, even though there were a lot of hills that day. At one point we're pushing up the longest hill and they're chatting away. I'm huffing and puffing. One looks down at his watch and without concern informs the group "we're running a bit fast". I look at my watch, "7:02". Crap.

I kept with them for 8. But after I let them go I was so busted I had to walk for a half-mile (up a hill). Then had trouble bringing it under 8:30 until I saw the 8:10 pace-group. Hooked up with them to finish out 14miles. Then I let something happens so I'd have to quit for the day -- basically I punked out.

This week I ran an interval workout with them on Wednesday: 6x800m. 3:20, 3:20, 3:05, 3:05, 3:02, 3:02. It was supposed to be MP, HMP then faster. For me it was more like 10mi, 10k, 5k paces. Yesterday we ran a 6mi tempo run. 4mi "warmup" at 7:30 pace. Then 2xMP, 2xHMP, 2xFaster. But it ended up being 7:00pace, then 3@ 6:30 pace, then 7:00pace, 7:30pace. I couldn't hold the 6:30 pace for more than 3miles.

Feels like I'm a freshman trying out for the team. But a freshman knows that one day they'll be a senior. All I get to look forward to is being a senior.

Damn, this is a tough group. If I don't get injured, though, I should see quite an improvement. Rest is the big key, and I've upped my sleep to 8.5-9hrs/day. (before running I was a 6.5hr/day person for my whole life). 60mpw and this kind of intensity, it's really taking a toll.

Anyway, thought this was germane to the whole "running with people discussion" too.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by lotsofphil » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:36 am

Very cool Nardo.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by klyth » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:50 pm

Hey runners --

By nature, I'm a lifter. I'm short, and not built for cardio. I get winded VERY easily, swimming is a total pain in the ass, and running isn't much easier. On the other hand, I can deadlift and squat well over double my weight. So, there's that.

I've gotten used to running, but I seem to have tendonitis in my right knee. At about 3 miles, it starts to just get very painful & I start to limp. This hasn't improved at all in the last 2 years, but it hasn't gotten much worse. I've found that if I only run twice a week, it never gets intolerable. If I try to push 3-4 days a week, the pain is pretty much constant, even so far as pervading my day-to-day activities.

I don't WANT to stop running. I hate swimming, and running is really the only endurance / cardio that I can do easily (that is, conveniently).

Do any of you have an issue with this? I think I should get some kind of knee brace/wrap but I don't want to get something that isn't going to help.

Thanks guys.
k

Also, if anyone has any questions regarding weight training, I'll be happy to offer suggestions.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by lotsofphil » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:11 pm

It sounds like you're heavy for a runner. I'd focus on cushioning. Good shoes and running on softer surfaces (dirt trails or grass as opposed to asphalt and concrete).

The other thing I'd think about is all the support muscles/tendons/whatever. But if you've been running 2-4 times a week that should be taken care of.

Besides that, maybe scale back the intensity? Run less, walk more. Recover (sleep, eat) better?

Pretty shocking ideas, I know :)

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by klyth » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:22 pm

So a wrap / brace isn't really going to help? :(

That's disappointing.

I could get new shoes, I'm sure. I've been running in the same shoes for well over a year.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by lotsofphil » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:44 pm

I don't know about wrap/brace. It might help, but it is not a subject I have a lot of experience with.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Zedingale1 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:59 am

Just curious, what kind of diets do you guys have for all this training?

Some food for thought, you guys might already know this stuff, and It might not be 100% accurate, but i didn't take that college level nutrition class for nothing. Do what you will with this information :D


The average human body burns about 1500 calories a day just to sustain itself
One pound of fat holds (*edit*) 3500 calories.
Our body stores energy in a few ways: Fat tissue being the largest store, Blood Glucose, and Glycogen in the muscles and organs.
The biggest source of stored glycogen is in the liver, about 600 calories.
Our body draws on each source of energy as we exercise.
When glycogen levels are low, excess calories from carbohydrates (mostly) are converted into glycogen to replenish lost stores.
This is the idea behind carboloading before a long run, to have the largest available stores of glycogen.
This is also one reason why if you push hard for so many days in a row, you will start to find yourself getting tired faster, if you are not replenishing your glycogen stores as fast as you are using them.
More intense exercise (Running fast, or anything that increases your heart rate significantly) will burn more readily available energy (glucose, glycogen) faster. But because the body wants to keep readily available energy sources for when you actually need them, lower intensity exercises will end up burning a higher percentage of fat (albeit over a longer period of time).




Kylth- Have you looked into the barefoot running style? It focuses more on a proper toe-heel form that is lower impact and causes less stress on the bones and joint. Your footfalls will be padded more and the shock absorbed by your calf muscle and ankle tendon rather than your heel and knee. Running barefoot can be equated to running uphill. Its more difficult and you won't go as far or as fast, but you will definitely feel work out. Being short and having a shorter stride work well with it. I recommend it because it's how I prefer to run most of the time and if you are in the market for new shoes its worth getting a pair of toe shoes.
http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/barefo ... unning.htm
Also I have had this book recommended to me a bunch though i havn't read it.
http://www.chrismcdougall.com/

Also, it might be a good way to restrain yourself from making your tendonitus any worse, while still getting a good running work out.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by klyth » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:06 pm

Zedingale1 wrote: Kylth- Have you looked into the barefoot running style? It focuses more on a proper toe-heel form that is lower impact and causes less stress on the bones and joint. Your footfalls will be padded more and the shock absorbed by your calf muscle and ankle tendon rather than your heel and knee. Running barefoot can be equated to running uphill. Its more difficult and you won't go as far or as fast, but you will definitely feel work out. Being short and having a shorter stride work well with it. I recommend it because it's how I prefer to run most of the time and if you are in the market for new shoes its worth getting a pair of toe shoes.
http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/barefo ... unning.htm
Also I have had this book recommended to me a bunch though i havn't read it.
http://www.chrismcdougall.com/

Also, it might be a good way to restrain yourself from making your tendonitus any worse, while still getting a good running work out.
I can't bring myself to wear Vibrams. They're just so god damned goofy.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Zedingale1 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:51 pm

More goofy than running with a limp?

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by big_mara » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:36 pm

Born to Run was a pretty interesting read. A bit fantasized for my taste. I think vibrams and actual barefoot running have little place outside of training proper running form and building arch strength. You can still go barefoot(ish) in minimal shoes. I use the zero-drop/barefoot Merrell Road Gloves for my short runs and I absolutely love them. They don't personally seem to work for my long runs as of now. I'm hoping I can continue pounding some numbness into the soles of my feet so I can wear them for 10+-mile runs.

Using these kind of shoes is supposed to promote a forefoot strike, which is then supposed to activate your body's natural coping mechanisms for shocks (i.e. your feet and leg muscles are supposed to work as springs). I don't know if I completely buy the current fervor over this approach, but I do think it is less stressful and much more efficient.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:39 pm

Interesting diet/cal stuff, Zed.

As for minimalism -- number of fast local runner who run in vibrams: 0
Number of n00bs: 4
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Zedingale1 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:00 am

You are right, barefoot is not great for competition racing, speed, or very long distance (at least not at first). But it was a refreshing change of pace after pounding out the miles in high school XC. Plus I stopped getting random swelling in my knee. My time for a 5k normal running back then was 19:00, but if I had been racing in Vibrams, I doubt I would have even broken 21 min.

I have never looked into Minimalist shoes, that may be worth checking out.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Eigenbasis » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:47 pm

I always heard consuming an extra 3500 kcal = 1 pound, not 2200...

As for me, I've been steadily losing weight. No real interest in running, it isn't fun. I play ultimate frisbee instead. I do a bit of treadmill work to build up endurance for ultimate.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Zedingale1 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:22 pm

Oh thanks for the correction. 3500 is the right number

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by lotsofphil » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:37 pm

Does anyone have any experience with knee tendonitis? I am pretty sure I've got it and it is starting to drive me batty.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Mai » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:54 pm

I have chronic/recurring ITB and patella tendonitis. I've had it since I was 12 or so. Is it in the knee itself or on the side? I developed it from having unevenly-strengthened thigh muscles; as a result, my underdeveloped knee was taking too much pressure to keep up. My PT had me do lots of strengthening and stretching excercises, such as squeezing a medicine ball between my knees in a seated position and raising my legs up to be straight, leg lifts with ankle weights, and things like that. If you can be more specific about the location of the pain, I can try to give more info.

Hope this helps, and I'm sorry :( it sucks.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by lotsofphil » Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:17 pm

Top inside corner of my right knee. I'm thinking I have tendonitis based on things like:

"Knee tendonitis produces pain, tenderness and stiffness near a joint and is aggravated by movement. The inflamed tendons in the knee are usually painful when moved or touched, and the tendon sheaths may be visibly swollen from the accumulation of fluid and inflammation. Moving the joints near the knee tendon (even slightly) may also cause severe pain. The pain may be worse when ascending or descending stairs, when getting up from a seated position, and at night."

That describes me perfectly. The confusing thing is that I have no idea where it came from. I haven't been doing anything unusual. I was sitting in church when it first started hurting. And it hurt quite a lot.

Treatment so far has been ice, rest and hopping up and down stairs on one foot (I'm on 3rd floor) :)

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Raccoon » Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:43 pm

Sorry, no help from me, Phil. My only running-related injury/issues have been a mild calf pull back in December (don't know how to avoid that, but not running for a week cleared it up) and occasional metatarsalgia mostly in my right foot.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by FufuBunnySlayer » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:59 pm

lotsofphil wrote:I was sitting in church when it first started hurting. And it hurt quite a lot.
Would you say it's a burning sensation? >_>

All joking aside, I hope it starts feeling better soon, Phil.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by lotsofphil » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:01 pm

FufuBunnySlayer wrote:
lotsofphil wrote:I was sitting in church when it first started hurting. And it hurt quite a lot.
Would you say it's a burning sensation? >_>

All joking aside, I hope it starts feeling better soon, Phil.
Yeah, I hadn't been to church in a while and when I crossed the threshhold, a weird noise, like flames crackling and... :)

I had a softball game a couple of hours later and got a fair bit of teasing about hurting my knee in church. It's not a very macho story.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by top1214 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:08 pm

So I accidentally traversed 5k by foot. I went to go walk to a barber's shop that was within walking distance of my place. Turns out they close early on Saturday. So I turned around and walked back home. It took 45minutes. I wondered how far it was. Turns out 5k.

Moral of the story: make sure the place you're walking to is actually open.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Zedingale1 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:08 pm

lotsofphil wrote: That describes me perfectly. The confusing thing is that I have no idea where it came from. I haven't been doing anything unusual.

Maybe it's something you have been doing for a long time, that you don't realize is straining your knee. It's pretty common to for people to stress their bodies unknowingly while doing every day things just slightly wrong. I'm pretty sure playing all my multies on KOL wouldn't have given me carpal tunnel if I just took more care with the way I positioned my arms.

As far as I understand it though, the main ways to treat issues with tendons are to:
1. Stop the activity that's causing the problem. Physical therapy can help to isolate the cause and retrain you if it's a persistant and bad habit. Also resting
2. Reduce swelling. Again resting will accomplish this as well as taking NSAIDs (Anti inflammatorys like Ibuprofen). You could caus more permenant damage if you do nothing to relieve the swelling.

Remember R.I.C.E.
Rest, Ice, Compression, and Elevation.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:01 pm

Zedingale1 wrote:2. Reduce swelling. Again resting will accomplish this as well as taking NSAIDs (Anti inflammatorys like Ibuprofen). You could caus more permenant damage if you do nothing to relieve the swelling.

Remember R.I.C.E.
Rest, Ice (Ibuprofen), Compression, and Elevation.
I'll challenge the "Ibuprofen" recommendation http://fellrnr.com/wiki/NSAIDs_and_Running.

In May and June I had tendinitis of the lower hamstring, right behind the knee. Felt like my lower leg was going to drop from my knee socket when I walked down stairs. Doing the hurdler stretch was painful. But after 2mi of easy running the pain wasn't very noticeable. I was doing lots of hard speed-work at the time; fast and short intervals (400, 800). Running 55mpw.

I stopped doing those when I began my marathon training program. Now, I'm running 1mi/2mi repeats, or 800s at 10mi pace. I'm up to ~70mpw and the tendinitis has gone away.

So, while I didn't really "rest" it, I did stop doing what was aggravating it.

Oddly, I'm doing more mpw than ever and feeling great, injury free *fingers crossed*
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Zedingale1 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:39 pm

Good Stuff! I didn't realize they were that bad for healing runners. I'm no medical professional after all. I had read that NSAIDs are standard treatment, but they make a good point that while reducing pain, it impairs the healing process. I always thought that reducing swelling decreases the abrasion on the swollen tendon, helping to stop things from getting any worse.

Generally I try not to take them, and only take them when i'm in particularly bad state, but that's just how I am with all forms of medicine. Pills are a last result kind of thing for me, but my family uses "Vitamin I" quite often.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Raccoon » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:27 am

Any thoughts on exercise-induced asthma? I think I'm getting over a very mild case of it, perhaps brought on by a 12 mile trail run in 90+ degree weather on Monday. (Well, a lot of the trail was shaded, but the getting home part -- 1.5 miles -- was in the hot sun.) I noticed some occasional mild shortness of breath starting on Tuesday, peaking on Wednesday, and mostly gone now.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Snaelda » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:54 pm

I just started running some, doing a couch to 5k program that's free, set up by the NHS

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/c25k/Pages/c ... -plan.aspx

It's a set of podcasts that tells you when to walk or run in the intervals and gives you a regular, yay almost there just one more interval to go you're doing great! etc. motivational chatter.

The advice about running form there is wrong (actually telling people to make sure to heel strike, wtf?) but this is the first time I've done more than 1 run a week so the motivational part is working for me so far. I just finished week 2 run 1.

Ignoring the 5min warm up and cooldown walks I did 2.9km in 21:40min, this doing alternating 90 sec run and then 2 min walk. Still a long way to go but this is just week 2.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Eevilcat » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:13 am

I downloaded the same program from the NHS website... filestamps are 2nd January so it's a bit of a failed new year resolution. :oops: Thanks to the eevil kitty I need to get some new running shoes, so might get started before the end of the year.

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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:34 am

Eevilcat wrote:Thanks to the eevil kitty I need to get some new running shoes, so might get started before the end of the year.
When I started running last Sept I listed my goal as "Wear out my trainers." Almost a year and 2,000+ miles later and I'm now on my 6th & 7th pair of shoes.

Fall is a good time to start -- the weather makes you just want to run. As a friend put it on his long run report: "70F today. Almost felt like cheating."
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Raccoon » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:23 am

NardoLoopa wrote:When I started running last Sept I listed my goal as "Wear out my trainers." Almost a year and 2,000+ miles later and I'm now on my 6th & 7th pair of shoes.
I'm at about half your mileage, but I'm nearing the end of my third pair of main training shoes, plus I've got about 100+ miles on a short distance/racing/lightweight pair, and just started on a pair of trail shoes.
Fall is a good time to start -- the weather makes you just want to run. As a friend put it on his long run report: "70F today. Almost felt like cheating."
70? Seems kind of warm. :roll:
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by NardoLoopa » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:57 pm

1st Runnerversary tomorrow:
Ran 2,222miles in my first year
Went from couldn't run 3miles to a high of 77mpw.
Decommissioned 4 pair of running shoes (350-619miles on them).
Dropped 13% of my body weight (26lbs), from 24.4 BMI to 21.1 BMI.

Feeling awesome.

Thanks for the nudge, Rac.
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Re: Speed (running & exercise)

Post by Suendenbock » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:07 pm

Congratulations Nardo!

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