Best food and booze from the mall

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Eleron
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Best food and booze from the mall

Post by Eleron » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:53 am

Here are the results from some number crunching I've done recently regarding what food / booze / spleen items to buy from the mall. The full list doesn't really fit the forum format, but I've included examples of what it looks like. The full list can be found at the following link:

http://www.houeland.com/kol/diets

Milk of magnesium is of course extremely good and should always be used (from about 100 meat/adv). Ode to booze is simply assumed for all booze since it can be gotten at no cost.

Example diet bracket (assuming liver of steel), on 2008-10-14:

Code: Select all

     940 - 1171.4     m/a:  198.2500 advs / 7.9k meat:
           1x fortune cookie [40 meat]
           1x milk of magnesium [1298.3 meat] + 2x spooky lo mein [2300 meat] + 2x beer basted brat [3.9k meat]
           4x rockin' wagon [1550 meat] + 3x cup of primitive beer [800 meat]
           1x rockin' wagon [1550 meat]
           15x twinkly wad [270 meat]

(This assumes that a tuxedo shirt is worn. A rather low estimate of 20k meat gained per semi-rare is used.)

The best diet depends on how much you value turns compared to meat. If you're purely farming and get combined meat+items worth 1000 meat each turn, you would consider each turn worth exactly 1000 meat and would use the diet for 966.7 - 1171.4 m/a, which is the best diet for any meat gain within this entire range.

Given the assumptions (only adventures gained matter, correct prices and gains are used for all items), the listed diets are optimal. Of course the prices will actually vary a bit, but I believe the list is still useful and the best of its kind.
Last edited by Eleron on Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:41 pm, edited 28 times in total.

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:40 am

Um, what are the numbers on either side?

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Post by VladimirPootin » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:06 pm

this is cool
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Post by NardoLoopa » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:23 pm

though w/o the economic data: http://www.feesher.com/epicure/
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Post by Eleron » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:52 pm

I'll have a look at automating this a bit more, pulling consumable adventures from the epicure link and market data from coldfront.

EDIT: Meh, the well-tempered pages have somewhat broken data for some stuff. I'll try to automate market prices anyway though.
Last edited by Eleron on Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:53 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:49 pm

If you want something that pulls market data off of coldfront, someone already created http://www.nbtd-productions.com/KoL/Farming.xlsx . It requires Office 2007, and they said they couldn't find any other spreadsheet program that would pull data from web sites.
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Post by Eleron » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:26 am

Yeah I've seen that. It's pretty good for what it contains, but it only considers some food and notably not the optimal ones.

I guess evaluating and sorting everything would be possible in a spreadsheet, but I really don't like doing anything complex in spreadsheets, it hurts my brain and my soul. (And anything office-specific would destroy both.)

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Post by Eleron » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:32 am

Some stuff based on well-tempered + coldfront + mallbot:

Code: Select all

=== Food ===
               wedge of gray cheese: 15.00 advs/full at  105966.67 meat/adv (bought at 1589500 meat)
           tin cup of mulligan stew: 10.50 advs/full at    3328.57 meat/adv (bought at 69900 meat)
                     frozen banquet:  8.17 advs/full at     771.18 meat/adv (bought at 37803 meat)
                     tofu chow mein:  6.33 advs/full at     258.03 meat/adv (bought at 4900 meat)
                        super salad:  6.17 advs/full at     227.98 meat/adv (bought at 4220 meat)
                     pr0n chow mein:  5.88 advs/full at     202.81 meat/adv (bought at 4770 meat)
                      olive lo mein:  5.83 advs/full at     135.68 meat/adv (bought at 2373 meat)
                    herbal stuffing:  5.50 advs/full at     133.52 meat/adv (bought at 2937 meat)
                  star key lime pie:  5.38 advs/full at     108.55 meat/adv (bought at 2336 meat)
                long pork casserole:  5.27 advs/full at      94.88 meat/adv (bought at 1500 meat)
                          peach pie:  4.86 advs/full at      35.67 meat/adv (bought at 520 meat)
                      savoy truffle:  4.67 advs/full at      19.27 meat/adv (bought at 180 meat)
                   black forest ham:  4.00 advs/full at      18.08 meat/adv (bought at 217 meat)
                 cursed sea biscuit:  3.78 advs/full at       8.82 meat/adv (bought at 100 meat)
                       lihc eye pie:  2.85 advs/full at       8.77 meat/adv (bought at 100 meat)

=== Booze ===
                     Grimacite Bock: 10.60 advs/drunk at  164716.98 meat/adv (bought at 1746000 meat)
                    Ralph IX cognac: 10.17 advs/drunk at    8051.08 meat/adv (bought at 491277 meat)
                  Hodgman's blanket:  9.50 advs/drunk at    4273.68 meat/adv (bought at 81200 meat)
        thermos full of Knob coffee:  8.50 advs/drunk at    2101.46 meat/adv (bought at 17862 meat)
           distilled fortified wine:  7.50 advs/drunk at    1600.00 meat/adv (bought at 12000 meat)
               gloomy mushroom wine:  6.17 advs/drunk at    1674.76 meat/adv (bought at 30999 meat)
               spooky mushroom wine:  5.27 advs/drunk at    1099.30 meat/adv (bought at 17379 meat)
                   teqiwila slammer:  5.00 advs/drunk at     350.00 meat/adv (bought at 7000 meat)
              cup of primitive beer:  4.75 advs/drunk at     147.37 meat/adv (bought at 700 meat)
                        boilermaker:  4.25 advs/drunk at      91.18 meat/adv (bought at 1550 meat)
                       thistle wine:  4.00 advs/drunk at      42.50 meat/adv (bought at 170 meat)
                    white lightning:  3.33 advs/drunk at      31.71 meat/adv (bought at 316 meat)
   cursed bottle of black-label rum:  3.13 advs/drunk at      21.19 meat/adv (bought at 199 meat)
  snifter of thoroughly aged brandy:  2.70 advs/drunk at      18.52 meat/adv (bought at 100 meat)
                Blackfly Chardonnay:  2.50 advs/drunk at      13.33 meat/adv (bought at 100 meat)


(This is only the list for the minimum meat to be profitable, it does not mean that they're optimal at this meat/adv level.)

It looks fairly good, but some of the high-end data is wrong, and they don't use fully compatible item names all over so some options aren't included yet until I do some manual adjustments. (Notably, dusty bottles of wine are missing.)

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Post by Eleron » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:41 pm

Meh, the epicure data is just wrong, using estimates from 2006 etc for some important items.

I have a pretty fully automated setup now, but it's lacking a good source of food stats. Anyone know of any others (or an easy way to scrape the wiki)?

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Post by Eleron » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:18 pm

Turias wrote:What about the mafia data files?

Seems like it's the same data unfortunately.

Code: Select all

# Data provided courtesy of the Garden of Earthly Delights
# The Well-Tempered Epicure
# http://www.feesher.com/epicure/index.php


(And e.g. wedge of gray cheese has the same values as the epicure page)

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Post by alacrity » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:28 pm

Eleron wrote:
Turias wrote:What about the mafia data files?

Seems like it's the same data unfortunately.

So the right thing to do here seems to be to converge on a widely known and even more widely used data source and fix the errors. I'm sure the Mafia devs would appreciate being presented with a patch for their data files that brought the overall accuracy of the data up. The neat thing about pulling from the links provided is that those are the current versions of those files, so you can write your app to pull data from there, and as fixes are added your app will be able to automatically pick up the latest data.

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Post by Eleron » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:47 am

alacrity wrote:So the right thing to do here seems to be to converge on a widely known and even more widely used data source and fix the errors.

Yes, I'm pulling data from the wiki now.
Last edited by Eleron on Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by kevbob » Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:50 pm

1. if gemelli's data is out dated, why not contact him and get him better data? he posted awhile ago on the kol forums that he was taking a break and needed a hand updating/maintaining those resources.

2. is the wiki data on food more accurate?

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Post by Eleron » Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:48 am

kevbob wrote:1. if gemelli's data is out dated, why not contact him and get him better data? he posted awhile ago on the kol forums that he was taking a break and needed a hand updating/maintaining those resources.

2. is the wiki data on food more accurate?

1. I have no problem with sharing the data and welcome anyone to use it.
2. Yes.

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Post by Eleron » Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:49 am

Updated first post with new data based on mallbot + kolwiki and more complex calculations. It's all nice and shiny now.
If you're not eating something on it (+- TPS), you're probably not optimal. :)

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Post by Antipasta » Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:23 pm

The most awesome addition would be a calculation where you could give it a budget, and it would spit out the optimal diet for you, allocating your spending on food vs. booze vs. spleen... farmers would love that. I would love it, and I'm no farmer!

The brackets are cool, but too wide to really optimize.

(btw, handful of nuts and berries, which was my favorite food as a myst class, is a lot cheaper than 7175 meat per serving.)

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Post by Eleron » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:49 pm

Antipasta wrote:The most awesome addition would be a calculation where you could give it a budget, and it would spit out the optimal diet for you, allocating your spending on food vs. booze vs. spleen... farmers would love that. I would love it, and I'm no farmer!

The brackets are cool, but too wide to really optimize.

(btw, handful of nuts and berries, which was my favorite food as a myst class, is a lot cheaper than 7175 meat per serving.)

That's nuts + a munchies pill - without it they're never optimal for adventures ;)
And that's what the list does - the diets are actually optimal(*) at any point within the brackets. You can get more adventures with some other choices, but doing so is never profitable.

(*) Given that there are no bugs, the prices used to calculate them are precisely correct, and that you have no organ of steel. In practice they're reasonably correct since slight price differences normally only modify which adventure-equivalent item to use, and extrapolating to include organs works reasonably well.

Onto some explanation of why they're optimal under these assumptions:

There are a ton of possible diets, measured as the maximum number of turns you could get with X meat. Among these, only some are reasonable. E.g. considering only food you can get:

Code: Select all

...
42.5 adventures from 5x cursed sea biscuit = 500 meat
...
50 adventures from 6x savoy truffle + 1x crimbo pie = 1600 meat
56.67 adventures from milk + 5x cursed sea biscuit = 1825 meat
...

The list says that 5 biscuits is optimal from 11.8 - 93.5, and milk + biscuits from 93.5 to 120 (incidentally this is true for both food-only and as part of a complete diet, since there are no interactions between food groups until you hit pickle juice).

Now let's say you have 1700 meat to spend on food, what should you get?
Let's say you spend it on the truffles and pie, since that's the best diet you can afford. Then you get 50 adventures, and lose 1600 meat. This is pretty good as long as you value turns at more than 32 meat each.

Let's say you make exactly 32 meat per turn. Then it's
42.5 * 32 - 500 = 860 you gain meat with biscuits
50 * 32 - 1600 = 0 nothing for truffles + pie
56.67 * 32 - 1825 = -11,66 you lose meat with milk
So you should be using biscuits if that's your meat/turn.

Now let's look at 93.53 meat per turn:
42.5 * 93.53 - 500 = 3475
50 * 93.53 - 1600 = 3076
56.67 * 93.53 - 1825 = 3475

Truffles has not caught up with biscuits yet, while biscuits + milk already has. At higher meat/adv than this, biscuits + milk will continue to get better faster than truffles + pie.

Now if you desperately need just 50 turns, then truffles + pie would be cheaper than biscuits + milk (well not really because the RNG would screw you anyway ;)), but normally that doesn't matter very much. (I generated the full list though if there's any interest, it's 1851 lines for no organ of steel.)
Last edited by Eleron on Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:00 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Post by Eleron » Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:04 pm

I fixed a bit of a bug where it assumed that you could drink to 15 and then get the nightcap, and also uploaded some versions for the organs of steel (in aftercore). It doesn't change much, but at least correct lists are better than having to guess whether an item should be changed to the bracket above or below.

Stomach of steel is, of course, optimal, because of knob pasties. And that it's pasties and not sliders or stew pains me greatly ;)

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Post by Antipasta » Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:53 pm

This is great stuff!

I had misunderstood the meaning of the brackets, didn't realize it was a "what do you value your adventures at" price range, which makes a lot more sense than "what are you willing to spend" which is what I'd been thinking it meant.

Edit: I'd love to see the full list, at least for the midrange of maybe 500-3000 meat per adventure, where typical farming lives.

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Post by Eleron » Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:28 pm

Antipasta wrote:This is great stuff!

I had misunderstood the meaning of the brackets, didn't realize it was a "what do you value your adventures at" price range, which makes a lot more sense than "what are you willing to spend" which is what I'd been thinking it meant.

Edit: I'd love to see the full list, at least for the midrange of maybe 500-3000 meat per adventure, where typical farming lives.

Thanks!

It can also be used as a what-are-you-willing-to-spend list, where the highest bracket within your budget is used.

I completely forgot to actually include the URL in the post, I fixed that now :p

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:53 pm

Wow, that's really complete. I guess I should get rid of all these (hi|chow) meins, but I love the taste too much...

Can you include TPS drinks in this data, assuming the TPS itself is free and you're only paying for fruit/booze to mix with it?

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Post by ElleDriver » Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:13 pm

Thanks for this, some of these results are quite interesting. For example, I never would have guessed that primitive beer was so much more efficient than supercocks. My diet has just been based on the KoLwiki "best food"/"best booze" pages - I hadn't thought the effects of ode and milk would be so significant on lower-fullness and drunkenness consumables.

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Post by Eleron » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:01 am

QuantumNightmare wrote:Wow, that's really complete. I guess I should get rid of all these (hi|chow) meins, but I love the taste too much...

Can you include TPS drinks in this data, assuming the TPS itself is free and you're only paying for fruit/booze to mix with it?

The statful chow meins can be pretty good if you want to level, since there are substantial stat gains. Hi meins are all offstat-ish though, that's not optimal ^^
I'll work on the TPS thing in a bit, just have to set up all the recipes manually which is boring.

ElleDriver wrote:I never would have guessed that primitive beer was so much more efficient than supercocks.

SHCs are actually better (for turns), they're just so much more expensive in the mall that they're not profitable.

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Post by Antipasta » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:49 am

Since I always eat a fortune cookie or two, I can't stick to the complete 5x super ka-bob or 5x tofu chow mein diets... or even a 5x black pudding diet. I always need some lower fullness fillers to finish off my stomach.

Any data on what the optimal one-fullness and two-fullness foods are for "normal" price ranges?

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Post by lostcalpolydude » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:12 am

Antipasta wrote:Since I always eat a fortune cookie or two, I can't stick to the complete 5x super ka-bob or 5x tofu chow mein diets... or even a 5x black pudding diet. I always need some lower fullness fillers to finish off my stomach.

Any data on what the optimal one-fullness and two-fullness foods are for "normal" price ranges?

Along with an analysis of whether eating a fortune cookie is a good idea even, which takes into account the average price of the semi-rares being sold (since it's probably a rotation between two of them)?
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Post by greycat » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:43 pm

If lewd cards are an option, you want to grab one of those -- very high mall sale value. Otherwise, I typically alternate between lunchbox and cyclops eyedrops. I might hit distilled fortified wine from time to time just for variety and/or to avoid saturating the market on the other two.

Prices on nearly all semi-rares have been plummeting lately, though. :(

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Post by Eleron » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:43 am

Yeah I'll add some fortune cookie-permitting versions when I get back to working on this, and stat gains as well. I'm really not sure how to handle some of the things though, like the value of semi-rares, cost of dusty wines or effects of say the melted jell-o shots.

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Post by greycat » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:08 am

For melted jello, just treat it as 1/3 chance of muscle, 1/3 chance of myst, 1/3 chance of moxie, and average it. Call it "32.5 muscle, 32.5 myst and 32.5 moxie". Close enough....

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Post by Eleron » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:15 pm

Yeah I think I'll just add some manual overrides for ~10.8 to all stats for jell-o, guess a reasonable price for dusty wine and semi-rares etc. Fortune cookies are of course awesome and should normally be used for any reasonable diets.

If there are actually people using salad-forked banquets in their diet without doing mad stunts I can look at the semi-rare cut-off a bit more, but I think I'll just try to simplify and publish some new stuff for now :)

(The previously awesome low-end cursed sea biscuits have quadrupled in price since this was published and need some updating :p)

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Post by Eleron » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:15 pm

Posted a new simple list which contains updated prices and some changes. To have a viable diet, more items are required to be available in the mall, which means that the estimated price for e.g. salad forks has increased quite a bit. Mafia wines (technically items costing > 10M) are now simply excluded from the list.

Fortune cookies have been added, with slightly pessimistic estimates for their usefulness. They are still optimal for most reasonable diets. One possible semi-rare per day is assumed at the moment, which is a bit inaccurate for low and high-end diets.

Stats are not included in this list, although they're pretty much ready to be used now as soon as I decide how to include them :)

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Post by Eleron » Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:58 am

New beta interface for accessing a total of 512(!) lists is available at:
http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~houeland/kol/diets/beta

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Post by QuantumNightmare » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:18 pm

That's an awesome page! Although... how are you calculating costs when you include fortune cookies? Do you assume we get one of the higher cost semi's and sell them, to help pay for eating better food with the rest of your diet?

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Post by Eleron » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:31 pm

QuantumNightmare wrote:That's an awesome page! Although... how are you calculating costs when you include fortune cookies? Do you assume we get one of the higher cost semi's and sell them, to help pay for eating better food with the rest of your diet?


It assumes that you get 1 adventure from the cookie, spend 2 to find the semirare, and sell it for 20k.

It also doesn't consider munchies pills or milk for the cookies, which is a minor bug.

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Post by MysticalPK2 » Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:54 pm

Wow, this is amazing! I can't wait to take full advantage of it! I have a question - does the Rockin' Martini take into account the bonus of a tuxedo shirt? If it doesn't, it seems like it is much more useful than it should be. If it does, well...I don't have Torso Awaregness, so could there be an option to change this?

Thanks, this is a remarkably useful list, and I'm already making more meat every day!

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Post by Eleron » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:59 am

MysticalPK2 wrote:Does the Rockin' Martini take into account the bonus of a tuxedo shirt? I don't have Torso Awaregness, so could there be an option to change this?

Yeah, it does. I'll add new versions with and without tuxedo shirt next time i update.

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Post by Oxbarn » Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:32 pm

I bet the short version is that if you don't have a torso, you should replace rockin' wagons with black & tans.

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Post by Skolor » Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:43 pm

lostcalpolydude wrote:If you want something that pulls market data off of coldfront, someone already created http://www.nbtd-productions.com/KoL/Farming.xlsx . It requires Office 2007, and they said they couldn't find any other spreadsheet program that would pull data from web sites.


Wow. I was just going through my site's access logs and saw I get a hit from here. Glad to know my spreadsheet got around.


Its rather outdated at this point, but if you're interested I'll be happy to update it. What it does is pull the data for coldfront marketplace for the days current "average" price for consumables. I'm pretty sure it won't work at all now because of new items added to that list, but I'll try and make it more robust to changes if there is interest.

With the price values from Coldfront it does some very basic calculations based on your estimated MPA and the current prices for foodstuffs to find out what would be optimal for farming.

I've got some notes I wrote down when I was originally putting this together, with a handful of features I didn't fight excel hard enough to implement. If there is interest in it, I also put some quick work into porting it to Google spreadsheets, although that doesn't allow you to insert your exact MPA.

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Post by Antipasta » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:03 am

Eleron wrote:It also doesn't consider munchies pills or milk for the cookies, which is a minor bug.


It's a minor bug, but I noticed it because the fortune cookie is almost the only only place where I ever felt that munchies pills were worth using! The other being with a Jumbo Dr Lucifer, while basementing.

Munchies pills are best with crappy food, and that's the only crappy food I regularly eat (unless stuck in hardcore/ronin, when I wouldn't have easy access to the pills, anyway).

I suppose that prices on munchies pills will skyrocket if you ever include them for fortune cookies...

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Post by Eleron » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:10 am

Antipasta wrote:It's a minor bug, but I noticed it because the fortune cookie is almost the only only place where I ever felt that munchies pills were worth using! The other being with a Jumbo Dr Lucifer, while basementing.

Munchies pills are best with crappy food, and that's the only crappy food I regularly eat (unless stuck in hardcore/ronin, when I wouldn't have easy access to the pills, anyway).

I suppose that prices on munchies pills will skyrocket if you ever include them for fortune cookies...

Hmm, you really think so? I might get around to fixing that and including chocolate as well. Even though it's rather easy to see when they should be used, I guess there's a massive difference between doing some easy calculations and just looking it up =)

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Eleron
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Post by Eleron » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:42 pm


rottingflesh
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Post by rottingflesh » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:33 am

Does this have any ability to update itself on the costs of items?

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Eleron
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Post by Eleron » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:04 pm

rottingflesh wrote:Does this have any ability to update itself on the costs of items?


It does whenever I rerun it. Which will happen more often than never now that I'm back from vacation =)

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Post by Eleron » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:58 am

Added chocolate and milk/munchies for fortune cookies. Also increased the value of semirares from 20k to 30k.

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lostcalpolydude
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Post by lostcalpolydude » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:29 am

As I understand it, this tool hasn't updated prices ever since the mall revamp. There is now a fairly simple way to get recent price data as submitted by mafia users, explained here. The file would need a little bit of parsing, but it's tab-delimited and in the form of itemnumber uselessvalue price, so that seems like it would be simple enough.
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Eleron
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Post by Eleron » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:06 pm

I implemented my own mallbot a couple of months ago, it's been updating regularly for a while. (Agua de vida wasn't around back pre-mall update :p)

(http://www.houeland.com/kol/malldump/ btw)
Last edited by Eleron on Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kevbob
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Post by kevbob » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:43 pm

Eleron wrote:I implemented my own mallbot a couple of months ago, it's been updating regularly for a while. (Agua de vida wasn't around back pre-mall update :p)
that's awesome. as an outsider to afh, thanks, that tool fucking rocks.

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Re: Best food and booze from the mall

Post by groli » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:50 am

This tool is all kinds of amazing! Thanks! :D

Now, if someone were to make a kolmafia script that automatically buys/crafts and consumes one's optimal diet as calculated there, THAT would be even more awesome ;-)

Edit: What about making the site create a list of commands that one could just paste in kolmafia's CLI to buy and consume the advised diet?

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